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  1. #11
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    Apr 2005
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    Looking at the clip from post #2, I see what is arguably a justifiable defensive shooting. The guy in blue appears far more animated throughout the interaction. The guy in red is hand-on-gun the whole time. You can spin that as either pre-planning a murder or preemptive defense. Either way, he didn’t draw his gun until after the other guy had. When blue pulled his gun, red didn’t try to draw on a drawn gun. He bargained for time, delayed the inevitable confrontation, and waited for blue to allow an opening—which he did by shoving that Tec-9 back into his pants. Once the window was open, red went through it. He drew, fired without hesitation, and kept firing. Then he broke contact as soon as possible and hauled ass. That all looks very defensive to me. Short of drawing and shooting red right out of the gate, which would have put him in a worse legal position, I see little for improvement. I can think of several ways that he could have done worse.


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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
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    MI
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    Puts me in mind of one of my brothers I served in the Corps with; he was a green light go type of guy when it came
    to violence and conflict- he repeatedly said if you think your about to be in a fight you should have already hit them twiceor shot them twice
    Or stabbed them or given them a brick to the head, and be looking for cover and the guys friends.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    TEXAS THIRD COAST
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    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    Looking at the clip from post #2, I see what is arguably a justifiable defensive shooting. The guy in blue appears far more animated throughout the interaction. The guy in red is hand-on-gun the whole time. You can spin that as either pre-planning a murder or preemptive defense. Either way, he didn’t draw his gun until after the other guy had. When blue pulled his gun, red didn’t try to draw on a drawn gun. He bargained for time, delayed the inevitable confrontation, and waited for blue to allow an opening—which he did by shoving that Tec-9 back into his pants. Once the window was open, red went through it. He drew, fired without hesitation, and kept firing. Then he broke contact as soon as possible and hauled ass. That all looks very defensive to me. Short of drawing and shooting red right out of the gate, which would have put him in a worse legal position, I see little for improvement. I can think of several ways that he could have done worse.


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    The guy in blue was a puffer fish. All posture and no substance. Little nonverbal’s clued me in to the other guy would be the shooter. Before blue pulled the Tec-9 the shooter had already considered taking the gun out, but changed his mind because of distance and attention from blue. He waited until blue thought his wolf tickets had been bought and his attention was divided. Once the gun was out he didn’t hesitate. Blue ran straight away never leaving the path of the bullets.


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    Jon Payne
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    The Two Most Dangerous Places in Today's World:
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    I choose to live a peaceful life. It's not hard to change my mind.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    757
    Putting aside the question of who started what in any of the videos, I noticed several similarities among those who ended the fight. Probably most important was the use/control of space. In the first video, red shirt did not necessarily keep significant space between him and blue shirt, but he prevented blue shirt from dominating his frontal/right-hand space, by keeping his left side bladed to blue shirt. Blue shirt made a stupid move by displaying his gangsta gun, then shoving it back in his pants (wonder if he wanted to win the size contest without actually fighting--waving the Tec9 around and then putting it away would seem to suggest that, along with his arm-waving, space-invading, chest-out manner early on). This was after things had really gotten hot, as it were, and it appears red shirt realized that it would come to fisticuffs eventually. In the second video, black shirt accomplished a similar end but by moving constantly--instead of an argument that turned like the first video, in which the situational dynamics required that some close proximity be maintained so that red shirt could keep some spatial control over excessively-excited blue shirt, it seems black shirt and hat were involved in some kind of verbal altercation that, perhaps intentionally, turned to fists much sooner. Then black shirt controlled how hat would/could move by using the structures around him and the wide sidewalk space to keep his angles open and get hat to more or less stand still out in the middle, where black shirt could move in more easily, while keeping his (black shirt's) angles covered by blading and switching which foot was forward pretty frequently (reminded me ever so slightly of Olympic sparring in TKD--the black belts would switch feet and direction pretty frequently, at least in class). The fight seemed to really kick off when hat half-heartedly attempted to grab black shirt, who used that to close the last space and get inside the arc of hat's weak arm, then smack him a good one, at least kicked off the action; the fight started mentally sooner, when black shirt began to work his way in, and hat kept following him slowly.

    The third video is a little different, to me. The stupidfest bro-down could have ended early on, as someone else pointed out. Taller ticked-off guy won with his immediate aggression, even though his body positioning for a fight might could have been better, as far as power transfer, movement, etc. However, jackass who kept telling him to walk away and jackass's chubs friend in black weren't in the least ready for the fight to start. Ticked-Off had the plain fight factor in his face--the fight started as soon as he confronted Jackass about whatever exactly Jackass said. The inciting moment was when Jackass put his hand on Ticked-Off's chest, after being, well, a condescending jackass to him. That was all Ticked-Off needed to punch him, he knocked out Jackass cold, then walked off. Chubs should have left him alone at that point but couldn't help the fight mania and went after him again. Ticked-Off won almost entirely by getting the jump on the other guys and then maintaining his fighting attitude when Chubs came after him; his punches weren't even very good (who punches with their wrist cocked down like that anyway?), but they didn't need to be.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    NJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Now can you predict the moment when the war has been declared, but not yet kicked off?

    I think bald guy was ready to go right from the get go just need to find his opening.
    As soon as the guy told the hitter about something at the fence. No question he was on mission at that point to take the other guy out
    As soon as the first guy put his gun away, it was over for him
    Seems to be as soon as the confrontation started, just took awhile to work up to it.
    Last edited by mross; 06-05-2019 at 10:50 AM.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    47,389
    SO SOME INTERESTING POINTS

    Response to presented violence can be described in a few words. Fight, Flee, Freeze, Submit, Posture*.

    Fight is simple...as soon as you have seen enough to justify preemption, you go. I have seen enough street fighting that I know when that point is and I will always, if possible, preempt the fight. Every time I have seen men wait for more...for the first punch to be thrown, it goes poorly. More on that later.

    Flee is also simple. As soon as you see the glimmering of the emotion bubbling up, its easy to leave. Its not a "swallow pride" thing either. It is quite simple as well. I have never lost s street fight nor a gunfight. I know how to hurt people...even fatally. But unless that is what i am there specifically to do, I have no desire to do so again. So I leave...and the aggressor goes home whole and alive due to my mercy, not my fear.

    Freeze is something those unaccustomed to violence will do. Even police freeze now and again when their minds are not switched on. It is a product of the inability to accept that which you are seeing. A sort of mental "Wait - What?". Not good.

    Submit. See above. Unless it is to the police...again, an analytical choice, submitting to an aggressor is not something that should be in the DNA of any readers here.

    Posture is an interesting one. What we are seeing in many of the videos is a posturing on the side of the aggressor. Posturing is an emotionally driven action. You do not see a wolf or a lion posture. A posturing contest is a silly thing to become embroiled in as it is difficult to extract from. Avoid posturing, but use the other man's posturing to your advantage. It signals his intent to get physical. As soon as you see posturing presented, decide to either leave or stay...but if you stay, ready your conclusive and preemptive blow as soon as he gets within your reach.

    All the street fights shown begin with an emotion-based confrontation. Not all fights are like that but many are. Many guys do not want to fight and posture (what I call "Babooning"), making a display to create a reason to not fight (ie., you back away), or bring their blood up to where they can fight. This is the fear biter at its best. Same as when you hear a police officer screaming (not yelling with authority) at a suspect. So the best practice should be to recognize the beginning of the posturing phase. If you can withdraw, do so out of your own choosing. He lives because of your mercy, not because of his bluster. But if not, recognize the posturing and the tentative closing of distance as an attack in progress and stop it at its beginnings.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
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    4,627
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Freeze is something those unaccustomed to violence will do. Even police freeze now and again when their minds are not switched on. It is a product of the inability to accept that which you are seeing. A sort of mental "Wait - What?". Not good.
    Experience tells here. You know it when you see it. Unless you've never seen it.
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

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  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    520
    At some point in the altercation when Hat feels like his close enough to Baldy he brings his hands up into a Gross-Guard Position. The Open Top-Hand covering the side of his face and the other hand Low down covering the Low Line-Indicating that he has some Martial Arts, Sparring experience.

    Baldy picks up on this and sets Hat up by allowing him to get close again, waiting for the Hand Position and Punches Hat as soon as he gets into his "Fighting Stance."

    Taking advantage of the fact that Hat is mentally not "in the fight yet"and will not be able to "see"/pick up the punch.

    The mistake that Hat made was that he confused a fight on the mat with a fight on the street. Relaying on his Competition/Sparring Competition.

    Believing that both of them first had to get into their Fighting Stances, wait for some kind of signal for the fight to start and then planned to Block Baldy`s Strike before Counter Punching.

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    Elfie
    HALFMAN HALFCAR

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