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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeromy Hasenkamp View Post
    .25 Seconds per round is the average from the study. So for 17 rounds= 4.25 seconds.

    But the hand wringers would have you believe that, "oh my god they shot him so many times." The executed him. I think in the case of Darrin Wilson it was 10 rounds...I listened an audio from a caller leaving a voicemail( i believe ) that was nearby when the shots were fired. The cadence even with his Sig was pretty close to that a , a pause as he exited the vehicle and then continued a couple more rounds. They tried to make a lot out of the 10 rounds when I think the audio is about 8 sec from first to last shot.

    What else? Well because the turds people face are somewhat, kind of at one time, from the human race or at least started there until they morphed into mutants. This means they can do the same on average. IE: If you have a 1 sec draw and fire 1 round and you are reacting to seeing the gun, you are 2-3 rounds behind. If gun is out and pointed at you when you react, you can be 4 rounds behind.

    #3: Novice vs Expert Shooters, under stress who is more accurate with their shots, What percentage better is the group you chose?

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    Expert is more accurate. You have to have to have some serious skills to be considered an expert in my opinion. I'm going to say at least a 100% improvement. Might even be something like 200%.

  2. #32
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    It does not matter how fast someone can do something. What matters is what unknowns it creates and how rapidly you can sort through them and respond either reactively or novelly..ie multiply his unknowns with yours.
    "Four words: We win; they lose."

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by austin View Post
    It does not matter how fast someone can do something. What matters is what unknowns it creates and how rapidly you can sort through them and respond either reactively or novelly..ie multiply his unknowns with yours.
    Actually how fast something happens does matter. It generally takes away the unknown. Yes there will be sme freaks of nature that are faster than the norm. However knowing generally how fast things occur allows you t focus on timing.

    Most folks have a false sense of how quickly things occur because of Hollywood or uneducated instruction. Therefor they select tactics that wont work with realistic time factors.

    Hence, trying to stand and draw straight up because they think they have a fast draw vs a default move first or thinking they can move one step to the left or right (stupid range drills)..it gives knowledge, Its along the lines if why SI is so big on force on force.

    Also if you have to defend your use of force you need to have some time frames others can relate to...remember if you cant describe why it was a rapidly evolving situation or help them to understand it may go worse for you...

    Knowledge and understanding of the science is important, otherwise you give folks more credit than they are due...

    Knowledge of how fast things can occur will help you tactically and potentially make you act faster when it is no longer just a vision in your head of what if...

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    Kamp
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  4. #34
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    Up close & personal....its pretty even. Mostly because the novice has been looking at people in the face & pointing all their life. When you increase the distance (10+ yards) you start to see the expert separate from the pack....at least IMHO.


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  5. #35
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    So where was the decision for the second officer made to shoot? The mother and the family would have you believe it is when the shots hit the perp when his hands are up.

    Also it is definitely feigned or fake...Now remember not saying anything about if thia qas a bad shoot or not, just talking about the point the BeeGee puts his hands up...Looking at the totality of the circumstances I think the facts would have supported ending his upon arrival at scene and not waiting for him to close distance.

    Of course we all know the only thing certain groups will focus on is that hisn hands were up when he was shot.
    Last edited by Jeromy Hasenkamp; 12-04-2015 at 12:48 AM.
    Kamp
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    "Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeromy Hasenkamp View Post
    #3: Novice vs Expert Shooters, under stress who is more accurate with their shots, What percentage better is the group you chose?

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    I think there's too many variables in the question as stated to get a good answer on that.
    Si vis pacem, para violentus.

    "Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."--Marshall Foch

  7. #37
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    Sorry took so long to come back to this thread...So many irons in the fire but want to keep this going.

    Novice vs. Expert Shooter, Force Science Study.

    Full article http://www.forcescience.org/articles/naiveshooter.pdf

    Of the 536 officers feloniously killed in the line of duty
    from 2000-2009, 490 died due to fatal gunshot wounds
    (Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), 2014). Alarmingly,
    290 of those officers were shot in the head and
    neck (FBI, 2014). Although 29 of the 536 officer deaths
    occurred during tactical situations such as hostage taking,
    high-risk building entry, etc., the remainder of the
    officers that were killed were attacked while performing
    routine arrests, investigations, traffic stops and other
    duties. Numerous articles and reports have addressed the
    issue of officer-involved use of deadly force and more
    recently, the lack of shooting accuracy officers demonstrate
    while performing in a high-stress gunfight. However,
    no known research has examined the opposing
    side: the shooting accuracy of inexperienced and
    untrained suspects who might fire at officers. Investigating
    the accuracy of these inexperienced shooters is necessary
    because their accuracy directly threatens officers'
    safety in a deadly force conflict. Documentation of the
    accuracy and speed of a novice shooter in the evolution
    of use of deadly force situations should influence the
    quality of instruction and standards officers must attain
    for firearms training in both pre-service and in-service
    training.

    From 3-15 Feet
    Novice Shooters 75%
    Intermediate 84%
    Expert 88%

    Not really a whole lot of difference in the percentages.

    Of Note:
    As demonstrated, rounds fired by novice and intermediate shooters in close proximity encounters are more likely to result in immediately lethal hits, as they fire primarily at the head. This finding is in line with the 2011 FBI report indicating roughly three of five officers feloniously killed with a firearm died of shots to the head and neck.

    The study also found that "experts" fired more of their shots at the body than the other groups....Hmmm..At least a certain group we know something about..is working on making those "experts" into real "experts" with training thing to make "face, the new center of mass."
    Kamp
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    "Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."
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  8. #38
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    #4 How quickly can a "prone" subject produce a gun and fire?

    #4a To the Front?
    #4B to the side?
    #4C to the rear?

    Post your answers !!
    Kamp
    Suarez International Tier 1 Instructor
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    "Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."
    Morihei Ueshiba

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeromy Hasenkamp View Post
    #4 How quickly can a "prone" subject produce a gun and fire?

    #4a To the Front?
    #4B to the side?
    #4C to the rear?

    Post your answers !!
    I got between 2.9ish and 4.9ish seconds between all of them. While holstered in normal people holsters and places. I haven't tested it, but I suspect not using a holster would slow progress in this particular test.

    When I attempted with AIWB, I was forced to roll to my back and draw. I was slightly faster in all directions, but only by fractions of a second.
    Last edited by H60DoorGunner; 02-07-2016 at 07:55 AM.
    Isaiah 54:17

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by H60DoorGunner View Post
    I got between 2.9ish and 4.9ish seconds between all of them. While holstered in normal people holsters and places. I haven't tested it, but I suspect not using a holster would slow progress in this particular test.

    When I attempted with AIWB, I was forced to roll to my back and draw. I was slightly faster in all directions, but only by fractions of a second.
    Doorgunner, How did you measure time? Shot clock? Just curious.
    Kamp
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    (and no, unfortunately it isn't the summer camp for our kids we all want to send them to)
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    "Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."
    Morihei Ueshiba

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