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  1. #1
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    Default Movement/Performance in Force Situations

    Alright...Gonna get a little scientific...or at least try to impart some knowledge that may help you if you ever have to relay to someone what a "reasonable belief" was that some hooplehead was going to use deadly physical force against you or determine that it was "rapidly unfolding."

    Very often we "guess" at how fast someone can doing something and have our own mental picture of how something occurs. Many have seen it during force-on-force but it is never quantified by a timer/high speed camera. That being said a lot of research is being done into how fast things occur and what is the human performance factors involved in deadly force encounters etc. such as memory and reaction time.

    So I thought I would start a thread that would add to the knowledge of how quickly bad shit can occur and how it wasn't reasonable for someone defending themselve to do anything else but what they did, like inject the hooplehead with lead.

    So here's the rules.. I post an action. It will either be on the part of the good guy or the hooplehead. Without doing any research, reading etc, I want you to post just how quickly in seconds you think someone can do the listed action.

    After a little time and discussion, I will give you the answer from the human movement research as it applies to deadly force incidents. We all prepare at the physical aspects but how often do work at the mental aspects? I know many do talk about mindset but this is setting that mental image of how something may occur to a real hard and fast time frame we can associate with everyday occurrences. I think what you will find is most folks hesitate more than they should and put their fate in the hands of the hoopleheads. They are more worried about what Tony Blauer calls "Fight 3 you vs. the system" than making sure they are not the "Elephant Man" as Gabe so eloquently puts it.

    I know, I know, a lot of guys are thinking that they will just head of to places unknown but realistically even in the United States there is still a fundamental right to self defense. The media and certain populations don' t sometimes agree but still ultimately the law is pretty clear ie: Zimmerman acquittal. Usually what happens is the good citizen says the wrong things because they don't know what to say or how to define in terms others can understand what they faced.

    This will help define what is "reasonable" and how to articulate in terms others can understand should you find yourself in a situation. And believe me, I don't necessarily want to see any WTers disappearing after what most likely is a good shoot. I know at WT it is always said that we'd rather be alive and having our family plan our defense vs our funeral. It is getting stupid these days and we need as many like minded folks hanging around especially to be a "jury of our peers."...So enough rambling here it goes.

    1. How long does it takes for a subject facing you to turn and go the other way 180 degrees (as fast as they can)? Reply with your initial gut feeling/guess in seconds. After some discussion, I will follow up with the answer.
    Kamp
    Suarez International Tier 1 Instructor
    UTM Master Instructor Training Provider and Independent Dealer
    Kamp's Suarez International Training Schedule
    (and no, unfortunately it isn't the summer camp for our kids we all want to send them to)
    Pacific Tactical Website
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    "Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."
    Morihei Ueshiba

  2. #2
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    I reckon it depends a whole lot on footing/stance/movement. If the BG was planning to turn around and is standing still, half a second. Moving towards you, gets surprised with a gun to the face, and his footing is gravel, two to three seconds. Reckon if you confuckulate his OODA loop, especially if he thinks you are just a sheep, that might even be longer. Though he will probably be so hyped on adrenalien, it might be quicker.
    If my time must come, let it be when I am protecting my loved ones. Let there be a pile of brass scattered around me and a pile of my enemies at my feet. Let my slides be locked open on empty mags and my knife broken. Let my face be bloody from biting the throat of my last foe and let me be wearing a necklace of fresh ears. Take me to Your Heavens and let me hear the laughter of my children as they reenact the fight and I will rest peacefully.- Edelweiss.

  3. #3
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    Nice thread.
    If my time must come, let it be when I am protecting my loved ones. Let there be a pile of brass scattered around me and a pile of my enemies at my feet. Let my slides be locked open on empty mags and my knife broken. Let my face be bloody from biting the throat of my last foe and let me be wearing a necklace of fresh ears. Take me to Your Heavens and let me hear the laughter of my children as they reenact the fight and I will rest peacefully.- Edelweiss.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boetman View Post
    I reckon it depends a whole lot on footing/stance/movement. If the BG was planning to turn around and is standing still, half a second. Moving towards you, gets surprised with a gun to the face, and his footing is gravel, two to three seconds. Reckon if you confuckulate his OODA loop, especially if he thinks you are just a sheep, that might even be longer. Though he will probably be so hyped on adrenalien, it might be quicker.
    For simplicity sake, good footing, simply movement time to go from facing you at a stop the other direction 180 as fast as he can..and we are talking on average fairly athletic early 20s something.
    Kamp
    Suarez International Tier 1 Instructor
    UTM Master Instructor Training Provider and Independent Dealer
    Kamp's Suarez International Training Schedule
    (and no, unfortunately it isn't the summer camp for our kids we all want to send them to)
    Pacific Tactical Website
    Facebook
    Twitter: @pacifictactical

    "Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."
    Morihei Ueshiba

  5. #5
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    Half a second, maybe faster.
    If my time must come, let it be when I am protecting my loved ones. Let there be a pile of brass scattered around me and a pile of my enemies at my feet. Let my slides be locked open on empty mags and my knife broken. Let my face be bloody from biting the throat of my last foe and let me be wearing a necklace of fresh ears. Take me to Your Heavens and let me hear the laughter of my children as they reenact the fight and I will rest peacefully.- Edelweiss.

  6. #6
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    Depends on what level of martial training, condition or alert level the subject is at...but I suspect average sheeple Joe with zero training could run into a second or three after having his OODA loop reset...soneone with some history of training a second and a half or under, someone who trains, is at a level of constant awareness of his surroundings perhaps cutting that in half to .75 to .5 of a second...


    CRG-Suarez International Combat Pistol Instructor

    SIG SAUER CERTIFIED ARMORER M400, 516, 716, M4, AR15, M16


  7. #7
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    Just turning: way under a second. 0.5s sounds like it might be too long, depending on how fast the guy wants to do it.

  8. #8
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    Force Science Institute studies indicate that it's at or under the threshold of average human reaction time to new input: .25 seconds.

    This is why we see some shot in the back. They were facing front when the shooter - police officers a lot of the times - starts the shot and then turn away. Shooter cannot over-ride the commit in time because of the reaction lag, that infamous OODA loop. Shot goes off and it goes to trial. They have to bring in the studies as evidence to work it out.
    Si vis pacem, para violentus.

    "Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."--Marshall Foch

  9. #9
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    Apr 2006
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    1/2 a second
    "Sometimes A Teacher; Always A Student"

    Retired from teaching for the time being.

  10. #10
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    So when answering just reply with the first number that pops into your head..Thats will most likely be your default because that is the Schema you have programmed and will influence your decision making when faced with a situation.

    Trying to see where everyone is, from a research stand point. Later will discuss the finding and if you're off, we will ensure you can take the knowledge to update your schemas, how you envision stuff going down to allow you to make unconscious response decisions.

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
    Kamp
    Suarez International Tier 1 Instructor
    UTM Master Instructor Training Provider and Independent Dealer
    Kamp's Suarez International Training Schedule
    (and no, unfortunately it isn't the summer camp for our kids we all want to send them to)
    Pacific Tactical Website
    Facebook
    Twitter: @pacifictactical

    "Progress comes to those who train and train; reliance on secret techniques will get you nowhere."
    Morihei Ueshiba

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