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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
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    Default HITS Vehcle Gunfighting 10/22/11 Winchester VA

    Taught the HITS Vehicle Gunfighting class today and it was a ton of fun.

    We have cars on the range to shoot at so we hiked up on the hill to test our training loads on sheetmetal and glass. The .38 SP didn't go clean through the trunk of an early 80s Crown Vic but the 9 and .40 sure did. Shooting at the windshield demonstrated bullet deflection and the shrapnel created when you shoot through laminated glass.

    Today was the debut of Carjacker On A Stick (patent pending) for the car drills. I'm sure someone has a picture.

    I enjoyed teaching this class very much. It is very important training to have, considering how long we spend in our cars each and every day.

    Jack
    "Most people find change in their dryer, I find bullets"- My wife

    I will remember that if the monsterous creature is within clubbing range, it is a tight situation, and start clubbing. This is true even if my firearm still works. No reason not to club and shoot at the same time.

    Whacking: The redistribution or impairment of biological functions intended to eliminate intercellular cooperation within a sentient organism.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    I will post a semblance of an AAR later. But I will post this pic now.

    How often do you get to do drive-by shootings? That's what you missed today bros.

    The passenger is smoking the steel on the right of the car.
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    “This is a war and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at anytime, and in anyplace.” - Morpheus

    "There are no silver medals on the world's mean streets." - CWS

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Jack Rumbaugh - Carjacker Dude.

    Frankly, I think this was some ingenious thinking by Jack.
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    Last edited by Cold War Scout; 10-24-2011 at 09:28 AM. Reason: Atrocious spelling first time around
    “This is a war and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at anytime, and in anyplace.” - Morpheus

    "There are no silver medals on the world's mean streets." - CWS

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
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    No long winded AARs from me.

    1) Jack has exponentially evolved as an instructor since I last trained with him in June 2010. He was very good then. He is literally great now. As far as I am concerned he's not just Suarez tier one. He is tier one period. If he ever devoted himself to this full time he would be better than a number of tier one big names I have trained with.

    2) Trigger time in and around a vehicle is a critical skill set in my book. We spend a lot of time in and around them. This class was extremely valuable training. Probably more so than other things we do/like to do. You've got to be able to skin that smoke wagon with your seat belt (initially) on and in confined space, and also, possibly, with a cover garment. Do you hit the target first, or do you unbuckle your seatbelt and then hit the target? It all depends on the threat you are facing, the urgency of it, etc. We live fired in scenarios that covered a variety of situations.

    3) Topping off. I believe in several instances guys were surprised when their pistol only fired a round or so before slide lock. Sure this was training but top off constantly. If you finish a drill and have fired a couple of rounds in the magazine in your pistol, top off during any lull.

    4) On one occasion I dropped my pistol on the ground from a chair when I thought I had inserted it in my holster, but clearly hadn't. It was embarrassing but, ultimately, that's what I was there for today. How often do you draw and reholster from a vehicle or simulated vehicle position? Again, that's why I was there today. To get in practice across the spectrum of vehicle related issues and maneuverings one would need to have familiarity with. Mastering the nuances matters.

    5) Point shooting matters. Forget about needing to be on your sights for every single shot you fire. WT and SI folks already know this. The vehicle gunfighting course provides an exclamation point to this skill set.

    6) Ambidextrous gun handling. Another skill set that you will need in the real world. Perhaps more so in a vehicle than usual because of the confining, condition setting positions you may be in (like a passenger needing to move and shoot to the 5 o'clock).

    7) Vehicles as cover. We spent some time firing our weapons through a windshield and also through the side of a vehicle. Most bullets pierced the trunk of the car end through end. It's one thing to read about such. It's another thing to see it with your own eyes. We even got to examine rifle rounds that had punched through wheel welds.

    All in all one of the more valuable courses I have ever taken. If you get the opportunity, don't pass it up.
    “This is a war and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at anytime, and in anyplace.” - Morpheus

    "There are no silver medals on the world's mean streets." - CWS

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    San Jose, CA
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    242
    Very interesting indeed. A couple quick questions:

    All my shootings have been outside of vehicles. So I am curious.

    1) how loud does it get? Without ear protection, would it be disorienting/ringing firing from inside the vehicle?

    2) which part of the car would be reasonably a good cover? kneeling on the front wheel cover (have head/torso covered by 2 layers of steel plus engine block). Sounds like the rear wheel area didn't work well (did the bullet shoot through two layers of steel?)

    3) anyone shooting through windshield from inside the car? any danger from the blow back of the glasses and deflections of bullets?


    P.S. If this SI course will be held near my AO in the future, I have a friend who runs windshield replacement business and we can probably get a lot of (slightly cracked) windshields to shoot through?! How big a range would we need to host Vehicle gunfighting? I know some private range owned by ex-military friends.
    "Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes." Eph 6:11

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    546
    You guys seemed to be enjoying yourself over the berm today. I heard couple different times tires churning gravel. Jack--good improv on the car jacker dude.

  7. #7
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    The closest I came to no hearing protection today was foam ear plugs. The driver's window was open. It was barely noticeable but I wouldn't speculate as to the debilitating effects of no ear protection at all. I have a good friend who did PSD in Iraq who once said that if you fire your weapon inside an enclosed vehicle that you "will be out of the fight." Seems like an extreme statement but I think, if nothing else, his primary point was that in an enclosed space like a car it will definitely have an effect on you. Especially if it's a long arm.

    As far as cover goes, I think the basic premises remain. Unless you are behind the engine block, or behind a tire wheel, do not expect any miracles. I suppose if the trunk contained a couple of bodies that might work well for you.

    As far as tires go, you would be most likely to essentially have two of them that you are behind for all practical purposes. It's not like you would be under the car behind only one of them. I don't think at least. Angled shot are always a possibility thus avoiding the second tire, and I'm not sure how much damage a ground ricochet would do to a wheel weld.

    No inside the car windshield shooting. There was so much crap inside the car your chances of catching Hepatitis (or some such sh!t) would have been quite high. However, the target inside the car when we fired through the windshield from the outside showed significant spalling from something. That spalling could only have been from the windshield glass. You would run a high risk of catching this stuff in your eyes if you were inside the car.

    While it was somewhat difficult to tell for sure, my sense on deflection was there wasn't much (if any). My sense is it all depends upon the angle your bullet hits the windshield. Our shots were pretty much straight on as far as the angle was concerned, so it seemed the rounds had no deflection. I sense angle and distance would change that dynamic.
    Last edited by Cold War Scout; 10-24-2011 at 09:29 AM. Reason: Atrocious spelling first time around
    “This is a war and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at anytime, and in anyplace.” - Morpheus

    "There are no silver medals on the world's mean streets." - CWS

  8. #8
    JohnH11B Guest
    Thanks for the writeup. You're right, most of us are in our vehicles alot. Sounds like a good class.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
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    New Braunfels, TX
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    CWS,

    Thanks for the kind words. From you they are high praise, indeed.

    As to how loud it is, I only know of one person that has personally tested out this theory (on accident, forgot earpro while doing the drill in a class in another school) and I was told it was very loud. He said he had ringing in the ears for a couple days. No info on permanet loss.
    "Most people find change in their dryer, I find bullets"- My wife

    I will remember that if the monsterous creature is within clubbing range, it is a tight situation, and start clubbing. This is true even if my firearm still works. No reason not to club and shoot at the same time.

    Whacking: The redistribution or impairment of biological functions intended to eliminate intercellular cooperation within a sentient organism.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Blairsville, GA
    Posts
    1,665
    Jack - sounds like a well-done class and kudos on the improv.

    CWS - good to hear from you again ........... it's been awhile, hope all is well.
    "The will to win compares little with the will to prepare to win" - Lombardi

    "Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good" - Archbishop Charles J. Chaput

    "I answer to a higher authority than the approval of men not worthy of my time" - Gabe Suarez


    Train with Rick Klopp
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

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    CRG-4: Force on Force Gunfighting - April 8-9, 2017 - Albermarle, NC

    Additional classes including AK Rifle Gunfighting, Force on Force and Advanced Trauma Medicine coming soon.

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