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Rusty
09-28-2003, 09:35 PM
I remember Ayoob saying something to the effect that you may be able to shoot a 44 magnum faster than someone else shoots a 357, but you'll never be able to shoot a 44 faster than you can shoot a 357 .

I've got a 20 gauge A-5 Browning cut to 18.5 inches. Handles fast and dances itself into position subconsciously. I'm left with the sole decision of pull the trigger/ don't pull the trigger.

With the 12 ga. pump it's heave the thing to the shoulder, pump along the way, slam it into your shoulder, make the monster move!!! it's bead slowly onto the target, etc.

Maybe some of you are big burley John Wayne types. I'm 5' 4" and 53 years old. I dearly love N frames and found I flat could not handle a 4 " full charge 44, could overachieve and shoot in the low 90's with full charge 41's occassionally, but shot the 2 & 1/2" K frame model 19 with full charge 357's to the distinguished master level ( 97, 98 ). I know my eyes won't let me do the same today.

I have a 12 ga. 1100 smithed to my specs., but keep asking myself what for compared to the 20 gauge, which does it like a rapier vs a mace.

( My long-range full-power "battle rifle" is an SAFN49 in 7x57, for your info. )

John Silver
09-29-2003, 07:31 AM
I think the 20Ga has a lot of merit. If someone handed me one, I would not feel undergunned, and I've recommended them to many people.

However, I keep a 12Ga around instead. Why? Because if it comes to a time when I need a longarm/shotgun, I want it to have as much power as I can get. In other words, I keep a 12Ga because there aren't any good 10Ga combat shotguns or rounds out there.

Gabriel Suarez
09-29-2003, 07:52 AM
You know, somewhere along the line we got convinced that we needed a custom Benelli or Remington with sidesaddles, ghost ring sights, chocked enough for head shots with birdshot at 100 yards, and enough loops of nylon strap to make a parachute. And all that for the price of a small car. No thanks.

20 is fine for most shotgun work. If you can handle a 12, more power to ya, but a hit with a 20 is better than a miss with a 12.


More on shotguns
***************

ON SHOTGUNS

I was asked by a number of readers to update them about the shotgun. I want to begin by saying this: Its not my intention to flame, attack, or in any other means toss smelly stuff at anyone. Nevertheless, I suspect many will disagree with my views on the combat use of the shotgun.

Let me begin by saying that I have used these fine implements against live fighting adversaries several times. Moreover, I received the classic training in this weapon. Training and reality sometimes conflict.
I have three shotguns at home. One is a Remington 870. Another is a Remington 11-87. A third one, a vintage side-by-side exposed hammer shotgun with many "rustlers" to its credit.

None have Ghost Ring Sights, Sidesaddles, Spedfeed stocks, nor choking of ANY kind. All of them are more than sufficient for any anti-personnel duties.

In my opinion, the shotgun is NOT a rifle, nor should it be turned into one. If you need a rifle, the shotgun is a poor substitute. A CAR15, or even a Marlin 30-30 will outshoot a slug loaded shotgun everytime.

Slug loading has its place in a special situation, such as when you anticipate "contacts" in a car. I have a group of friends who routinely have such contacts and they load with slugs to penetrate through vehicles at close range.

What can a slug loaded shotgun do? It can reach a little farther and penetrate a little more. A rifle will do better everytime. What can a buckshot loaded shotgun do? It can hit the adversary with something even under bad conditions where your marksmanship has not kept up with the tempo of events in the mid zone to the outer zone. It is a weapon to be used at handgun distances against rapidly moving adversaries while you yourself are
moving, and where the light is poor.

Examples:

1). Shooting a running adversary while you are also on the run in the dark - Distance 20 yards.
2). Multiple adversaries suddenly appearing in unison, again attempting to fire.

Partial patterns will give you a hit, slugs or overly choked patterns may allow you to miss. As far as the ability to scallop a target standing behind a "hostage" - I suggest a long deep inhale to smell the coffee. Then garb you best most expensive shotgun with the famous shooting school logo on the stock and engraved so fetchingly on the receiver. Load it with the most expensive tactical gold-plated buckshot you can find and then stand off at 7, 10, or even 15 yards (whatever the shotgun school qual says).

Now place your daughter in front of that evil silohuette target. Still willing to take the shot?

Technical exercises devised by clever minds on the firing range often fail to emulate reality. We've learned a great deal about CQB pistol fighting in the last few years simply by allowing ourselves to leave the doctrinal box. Perhaps its time we slay the sacred cow shotgun myth as well.

DEVELOPING SKILL

First off, forget about skill tests, your timer, and scores because they are meaningless outside of a shooting school. There I said it. Train for skill and attribute development, not to beat some silly test.

Now, what skills and attributes do we need to train for?

1). To know tactical advantage and Liabilities of Shotgun and their ammunition
2). To develop sound Firing Positions, Ready Positions as well as Ready Carry positions
3). Reality based Marksmanship that takes advantage of the standard (not overchoked) shotgun pattern
4). Tactically appropriate Gunhandling Drills & Transition to Pistol if suitable.
5). Reactive and Proactive Reloading
6). CQB Responses to any point along a 360 arm's length to 7 yards. Its important to focus (though not exclusively) on fast close shooting because this is where you will use the weapon, not at the mythical ranges some schools are suggesting..
7). The ability to retain/recover weapon in body to body fight (including alternative force issues)
8). Shooting in diminished light and the use of assisted lighting.
9). Shooting on the Move (in anything but firing from ambush you must move or get hit).
10). Reality based Multiple adversary responses (not simply shooting at five pepper poppers).
11). Learn YOUR natural body speed and shoot as fast as YOU can guarantee the hits (not on how fast some "master" shot with his souped up Benelli back in 1990).

Develop these attributes and you will do well with your shotgun in any fight. The funny thing is that it doesn't take 5 days in the desert nor $1000 to teach you this material. We can do it for a fraction of the cost in one weekend class. Isn't progress wonderful?!

CarlosDJackal
09-29-2003, 06:12 PM
A 20 GA shotgun is one of the most overlooked home-defense firearms there is. Although with less number of pellets, it can shoot the same 00 buckshot as the 12 GA at pretty much the same muzzle velocity. But at about 1/4 the recoil.

For small-statured individuals, the 20 GA is an excellent option. If you can handle a 50-pound mallet, why settle for a 5-pound hammer?

V42
09-30-2003, 12:39 PM
I think one problem is that there is less available ammo and firearms in 20 gauge, and they generally ahve to be custom ordered.

Example, someone in a handgun restricted state wanted a shotgun that he (with little gun experience), his wife, and daughter could use. He wanted a pump gun. I sugessted the venerable Remington 870 with an 18"-20" barrel and an extended mag, to better allow the gun to stay loaded with a fair number of rounds while loaded one to two rounds below max capacity to reduce pressure on the mag spring. But I could not find anywhere that carried an extended magazine tude for the 20 gauge.

Steve
09-30-2003, 12:45 PM
chaote makes them i have them on 2 guns in 20 gauge

Tangle
10-01-2003, 01:57 PM
I decided the post was inappropriate.

Tangle

Gabriel Suarez
10-01-2003, 02:48 PM
Gents,

I was taken to task privately over the above post that I'm quoting below:

".....As far as the ability to scallop a target standing behind a "hostage" - I suggest a long deep inhale to smell the coffee. Then garb you best most expensive shotgun with the famous shooting school logo on the stock and engraved so fetchingly on the receiver. Load it with the most expensive tactical gold-plated buckshot you can find and then stand off at 7, 10, or even 15 yards (whatever the shotgun school qual says).

Now place your daughter in front of that evil silohuette target. Still willing to take the shot?"

The email mentioned that I was putting down a couple of schools. I want to make sure everyone understands that I am not doing this.

I am however saying that these schools have blocked themselves into a corner in terms of methodology. When you come out and announce that you are the world leader and that your school is the pinnacle of the art, and then it turns out not to be true, its a problem.

I am poking fun at the notion that someone thinks that you need a $2000 shotgun to win a gunfight. I am also poking fun at the idea of spending tons of money to get a weapon that will perform a shooting school test that you would never actually try in real life. I guess I'm irreverantly voting for some reality. If I offended anyone, I apologize.

Tim Brooks
10-01-2003, 09:51 PM
Shotgun Warriors,
To start with, great forum Gabe, and a little off topic comment about your last post. I was not put off by your big time school dig and it's nice to see that those that were, contacted you off the forum.
Regards, Tim Brooks
Ravens Keep
Paulden, AZ
www.cybertrails.com/~trbconst/RAVENSKEEP/

Rusty
10-02-2003, 12:12 AM
Sorry to hear you'd been taken to task for those comments.

I'm the one who brought the attitude to the post, you responded to the point and in appropriate form and you got sniped at!

Live and learn whatever way it takes ( with 6+K posts as co-moderator of the BF H.I. forum I should know better... than what, I'm not quite sure ). Anyway, welcome to the mine field.

Edit: just saw the locked post further down. Ouch! Well handled, though.

* the Khukuri kooks

V42
10-02-2003, 12:52 AM
Gabe,

Just want to say that I read your post detailing your shotgun philosophy over and was very impressed. One of the most well thought out outlines on the defensive shotgun. My 870 and Benelli Super 90 are stock and without accoutrements and people would have me believe that they are naked.

Wayne Dobbs
10-07-2003, 08:33 PM
Gabe,

I'll jump in there with you and say that you're speaking the truth on using shotguns in so-called "hostage rescue" shots. I've been the recipient of training from at least one of those schools that indicated you just hold off to the side of the BG's head and give him the bad news. The trouble with that from my perspective is that we all know you're not likely to get a static shot in such a real world problem. Additionally, there is ALWAYS the chance of a stray pellet in the pattern and all of the buckshot or slug loads I'm aware of launch a shot cup and/or base wad along the general path of the shot and where these go is COMPLETELY UNCONTROLLABLE AND UNPREDICTABLE. The shot wads are capable of causing serious injury or death at close ranges (say under 10 yards) and you know where Mr. Murphy will direct them if we try that stunt in the real world.

Shotguns are great for some situations, but precision situations demand precision weapons and cool hands and heads deploying them.

Wayne Dobbs

Tangle
10-08-2003, 04:48 AM
Wayne,

I experienced first hand what you are talking about in a shotgun course. We had a drill with a hostage between two BGs (all three were pepper poppers) and the drill was to shoot the BGs with 00, load a slug and shoot a 12" plate at 50 yards. It was a man against man setting. I hit the BG but just one pellet went wide and knocked down the hostage. That settled it for me - don't use buck shot for "surgical" (hostage) shots.

Vig Creed
10-27-2003, 03:18 PM
ON SHOTGUNS

(1) None have Ghost Ring Sights, Sidesaddles, Spedfeed stocks, nor choking of ANY kind. All of them are more than sufficient for any anti-personnel duties.

(2) Load it with the most expensive tactical gold-plated buckshot you can find and then stand off at 7, 10, or even 15 yards. Now place your daughter in front of that evil silohuette target. Still willing to take the shot?

(1) Gabe, do any of your home defense shotguns have a white light attached? I agree that a bare-bones 870 with a white light is all that's really needed. But a white light is essential, IMO, since most home defense situations will be after dark.

(2) Can I place my mother-in-law in front of the BG target instead??? :D :D :D

(3) Gabe, I have your Tactical Shotgun book. The shotgun you are using on the front cover looks like it has a sling, ghost ring or rifle sights, extended mag, stock-saddle ammo carrier, etc. And some of the shotguns you are pictured using on other pages have additional add-ons (white light, folding stock, etc). Care to comment?

creed

billcameron
10-27-2003, 03:39 PM
I put a tritium front sight on my 870 - 12 gauge(the turkey hunting special edition with short barrel and synthetic stock)- it just screwed into existing threads and same basic size of original sight. I did not put on a rear sight. My thinking was shoot it like a shotgun, but nice to know where your muzzle is in the dark. Also put on choate extended magazine and that was it.

darwin25
11-18-2003, 09:23 PM
(1) Gabe, do any of your home defense shotguns have a white light attached? I agree that a bare-bones 870 with a white light is all that's really needed. But a white light is essential, IMO, since most home defense situations will be after dark.


Obviously, I am not Gabe.HEHEHE. But if you will alow, I would want to respond to your first question.

I live in the Philippines and never had the luxury of attending any schools that specialize in firearms training, but I have some military training and more than a few combat experiences including home invasions and home defense.

In my experience and in my opinion, one does not really need a white light. You are in your own home, you have the advantage of knowing every light switch in your house. And if you have a centralized light switch for your whole house in your room much better. My point is, why engage the BG in the dark in your own house? You are putting yourselfe at a disadvantage by using whitelight because most likely,there will be more than one BG inside your house. In the dark, you will only see the area where your white light is pointed. Though its good to have one just in case the BG decides to shoot the lights out.

One difference of home defense over the street is that at home, you get to plan your defense. Have a combat plan, know where in your house you can establish a choke point and staging area. In my experience, home defense is more of an, though not quite, ambush type rather than direct upfront and confrontational. Fight the BGs in your house behind cover. You are in you own house. The BGs have just entered your kill zone. You have the advantage. You just have to keep the initiative.

Stay safe

Sorry if I got a little off topic. Carry on