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All-in fighting
04-14-2005, 05:43 PM
gents, any research on this weird subject ? the differences or commonalities of filipo moro amok and viking beserk ? was it only religous fervor [ odin, allah] or were other factors involved [mead , opium ?] ---i know that jurumentados tied thongs around major blood vesels [ hurley] before making a charge----any historical research on this , imagine this is something you should be able to tap into when someone is trying to take you out for the count--ralph

Ian Wendt
04-14-2005, 05:50 PM
Come now. Surely you realize that there are no drugs in mead apart from alcohol. The berserkers were certainly more than just "mean drunks".
If anything, historical finds indicate that it was a sort of religious fervor if you wish to use that term, that "powered" the Viking berserkers. Quite possibly supplemented heavily with a brew made from a certain mushroom common in Skandinavia. There are some researchers that don't buy into that particular explanation.
They were also highly trained and dedicated warriors.

All-in fighting
04-14-2005, 05:54 PM
the opium reference was to the possibility of the malay side of the issue--ralph

Ian Wendt
04-14-2005, 05:55 PM
Obviously, however you mentioned mead in the same breath.

All-in fighting
04-14-2005, 06:36 PM
ian, i mentioned allah and odin in the" same breath" as well, did you confuse those?---ralph

Ian Wendt
04-14-2005, 06:42 PM
Nope. Both gods, however mead isn't exactly in the same class as opium. And unless you count the aforementioned "mean drunk" as a factor, then mead isn't very likely to have contributed to anything but a bad hangover for the berserkers in question. Sure... That might have made them REALLY grumpy.

All-in fighting
04-14-2005, 06:44 PM
ian , what about the mushrooms , if there is any truth to that, do you feel it could have produced such an effect to cause these warriors to become " so-called " wild men , impervious to pain---ralph

Terry Trahan
04-14-2005, 06:48 PM
The juramentados didn't just tie off their extremies,
they tied wet leather around their genitalia,so that when it dried,the pain would increase the mental disonance.
In other words,they drove themselves crazy with pain.

Ian Wendt
04-14-2005, 06:57 PM
Yes, it's possible.

http://peyote.com/jonstef/flyagaric.htm

Whether or not they actually did is still open for speculation, but considering their abundance in Skandinavia and the descriptions of symptoms looking very similar to the rages described, that the berserkers underwent. Yeah, it's definitely possible.

J Marwood
04-15-2005, 02:27 AM
I'm sure I've seen references to mushroom use by Viking Ulfhrednedar (sp?) and baresarks - IIRC it was taken as a suppository :eek:

I'll see what I can dig out and get back to you Ralph.

Ian Wendt
04-15-2005, 07:45 AM
Hahahah, erhm, no. Not a suppository. It was supposedly brewed in a special manner and ingested in a ritual fashion, but it was done in liquid form and orally.
Suppository... Heh.

Now some places and this is kinda odd, but Fly Agaric has been used ritually in many places. One of these places was with some siberian tribes. Apparently the active ingredients pass through the kidneys intact, so some of these tribes would actually drink the urin of people that had ingested the actual mushrooms. And still get high as kites from it.
Other tribes, the women would chew the mushrooms into a kind cud that was shaped into "pellets" and then the men would swallow these whole.

Strange stuff.

Kyle H
04-15-2005, 08:11 AM
Now some places and this is kinda odd, but Fly Agaric has been used ritually in many places. One of these places was with some siberian tribes. Apparently the active ingredients pass through the kidneys intact, so some of these tribes would actually drink the urin of people that had ingested the actual mushrooms. And still get high as kites from it.
Hey, something I know about. ;) Wild mushrooms.

Fly Agaric (Amanita muscaria) is quite toxic, and like most mind-altering substances, most of the active ingredients will pass through the digestive tract unabsorbed, but the kidneys filter the TOXIC elements out. I think the estimated max absorption rate is something like 30% of psychoactive elements per dose. So 70% of the active elements are passing through the body in the urine.

Now, if a person ate handfuls of AM to get the desired (shamanic or "heroic") dose of hallucinogens, they're well over the lethal dose as well. So by drinking their urine (or that of someone else) a few hours after ingestion, they have a chance to absorb another 30% of the remaining 70% (we are getting into math land here but you know what I mean roughly). One of the "rebirth" rituals I know of involving AM, practiced by Pacific Coast tribes around here, basically involves eating AM and drinking your own pee all night, so that when the sun comes up you're going ballistic. Also note the prevalence of AM imagery in northern European folk tradition-- Christmas cards, anyone?

r.e. hallucinogenic mead, it was (and is) usually made from non-Amanita variants that are not toxic, generally of the psilocybin family. Step one was to put fresh psilocybin mushrooms (lots) into a container of honey and stick this in a cool, dark place. Eventually, months later, the honey turns blue and is loaded with psychoactive properties. If you brew mead from this mix, you will theoretically have a beverage that combines drunkenness with hallucinogenic psychosis. In a ritual and warfare context, I'd bet that you could generate some incredibly fearsome berzerkers by doing this.

Jujutsuka
04-15-2005, 08:28 AM
hallucinogenic mead, it was (and is) usually made from non-Amanita variants that are not toxic, generally of the psilocybin family. Step one was to put fresh psilocybin mushrooms (lots) into a container of honey and stick this in a cool, dark place. Eventually, months later, the honey turns blue and is loaded with psychoactive properties. If you brew mead from this mix, you will theoretically have a beverage that combines drunkenness with hallucinogenic psychosis. In a ritual and warfare context, I'd bet that you could generate some incredibly fearsome berzerkers by doing this.
hehe, what a great forum.
Blue-psychoactive-honey-booze!!
Someone pass me the bottle! ;) j/k

todd_xxxx
04-15-2005, 08:28 AM
If you brew mead from this mix, you will theoretically have a beverage that combines drunkenness with hallucinogenic psychosis. In a ritual and warfare context, I'd bet that you could generate some incredibly fearsome berzerkers by doing this.

Just don't sit them down in front of a Ren and Stimpy marathon on Nickelodeon. You'll never get them of the house then.

jhegener
04-15-2005, 09:00 AM
Other tribes, the women would chew the mushrooms into a kind cud that was shaped into "pellets" and then the men would swallow these whole.

Strange stuff.

Hey! I'm trying eat my lunch of oatmeal here... :eek:

J Marwood
04-15-2005, 09:30 AM
Hahahah, erhm, no. Not a suppository. It was supposedly brewed in a special manner and ingested in a ritual fashion, but it was done in liquid form and orally.
Suppository... Heh.

Ah well, I must have remembered wrong...

It would certainly make me angry though :)

Kyle H
04-15-2005, 01:31 PM
Yeah, I'd be one of those Vikings that would say, "Yeah, uh, no thanks, I'll just fight in the battle, thank you." Suppositories, or urine chugging, or blue honey booze... wow, the lengths people will go to get messed up.

Treyarch
04-15-2005, 03:01 PM
Yeah, I'd be one of those Vikings that would say, "Yeah, uh, no thanks, I'll just fight in the battle, thank you." Suppositories, or urine chugging, or blue honey booze... wow, the lengths people will go to get messed up.

You and me both.

Ian Wendt
04-15-2005, 04:59 PM
Kyle, Amanita Muscaria, atleast the ones that grow in Skandinavia are actually not that toxic. The estimated amount needed for a fatal dose in your average adult male is over a kilo of mushrooms :eek:


From what I gathered, Psilocybin only causes psychotic rages if you're already suffering from a mental illness or defect. Like all psycho-actives they can cause some unpredictable mental states and rages can definitely be part of this. However the Fly Agaric seems to more consistently cause these kinds of "episodes" and personally I think it more likely to have been the substance of choice. It's also ALOT more common than the psilocybin mushrooms.

Askari
04-17-2005, 09:53 AM
Thought I'd add a pic to this thread:
http://www.mykoweb.com/CAF/photos/Amanita_muscaria(tfl-c0229-35).jpg
And on a Christmass card:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/files/04-52/394721763-thumb_agaricallegory.jpg

Kyle H
04-18-2005, 08:32 AM
Kyle, Amanita Muscaria, atleast the ones that grow in Skandinavia are actually not that toxic. The estimated amount needed for a fatal dose in your average adult male is over a kilo of mushrooms
You're correct, but this would not be all eaten at once-- the idea is that teas are made to concentrate the active ingredients, which is then consumed-- if one wanted to keep the psychoactive levels of the active ingredients up, as one dose is only good for a few hours, you have to keep consuming the active ingredients. If you break down the active ingredients per mushroom, as well as the toxic ingredients per mushroom, you are risking serious damage (though non-fatal) OR death to maintain the heavy doses required for these long rituals or states. This is how it was explained to me by an individual who partook in these ceremonies (the son of a Native American shaman/spiritual leader). This corresponds with what I've read about the northern European and Siberian use of AM.


From what I gathered, Psilocybin only causes psychotic rages if you're already suffering from a mental illness or defect.... [AM is] also ALOT more common than the psilocybin mushrooms.
It's my understanding the psilocybin can be found all over northern Europe-- I know that the British Isles are covered with them if you know where to look, according to folks who know. However, since this is merely speculation based on the comments of others who have studied this subject, I'm just throwing possibilities out there-- certainly not saying that it is one or the other. We just don't know.

Regarding psychosis-- that's an older term used to describe the hallucinatory state, and was not meant by myself to indicate mental illness, although I was not very clear (though you are 100% correct regarding how a true psychotic state can be triggered). I feel that a "psychotic rage" can easily be achieved without any drugs-- and in a ritual, combative circumstance, psilocybin could very very easily facilitate such a state. While psilocybin has a reputation for another sort of use, a warrior consuming heavy doses, in a ritualistic pre-fight fashion, could very easily get worked up into what we call a berzerker state. Of this I have absolutely no doubt.

Again, I don't know what was actually used-- no one really does. These are just two possibilities based on the spotty descriptions from long ago. I also have the disadvantage of having only read these accounts as translated into English.