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H.Weiss
07-24-2004, 05:14 AM
Lets rock......


http://globalunderworld.net/kimbo.wmv

Paco
07-24-2004, 02:21 PM
He needs to get to a doc man, he's effed up!

DaveJames
07-24-2004, 08:35 PM
Remember my brothers and sisters in blue, these guys do this not for fun, but for training, and they will bring it to you

Q-ball
07-25-2004, 09:52 AM
Hey Paul, I'm not LEO so help me out here. DOC is disorderly conduct, right? KIMBO got 10 years for DOC? In Oregon DOC is just a misdemeanor...I think. I know the more serious charges are assault, kidnapping...but DOC is pretty low on the list.

Paco
07-25-2004, 10:49 AM
This clip really brings the issue of disparity of force home. An averaged sized person attempting HTH against the likes of this has a snowballs chance.

Dr. Snubnose
07-25-2004, 01:41 PM
Size does not matter to the trained and skilled. If your talking average size and no skills and no formal training ....not a chance.

Paco
07-25-2004, 02:40 PM
David - indeed I was quite struck by how he ate that guys punches like they were little slaps.

And even the loser in this fight, who seems to have suffered a ghastly injury yet regains his feat, ambles around, and doesn't seem unduly dismayed at his disfigurement or partial blindness. He appeared to be smiling although that may just be in relief that Kimbo was content to be a good sport!

Fighting may be better than going fetal like in a grizzly attack but a Kimbo is a task for good sneakers or good guns. We mustn't over estimate the power of handguns and we sure mustn't over estimate the power of our hand to hand skills as good as they might appear in a training environment.

Paco
07-25-2004, 02:46 PM
Dr. Snubnose - ahem . . . a good big man will nearly always beat a good little man. A superior little man may beat a mediocre big man. But only a small handful of highly trained and skilled fighters will prevail against in this case and skilled and very experienced mayhem maker - at best. I'm not sure it's a complete handful either.

I'm a "little man" (5'11" 170 lbs). We just have to face our limitations when it comes to brawling and use weapons if it isn't for sport.

Q-ball
07-25-2004, 06:04 PM
Ooooh...in DOC. I didn't read it right. Thanks

Dr. Snubnose
07-25-2004, 06:09 PM
Paco, I too am a small man, 5'7 130lbs. However, after 48 years involvement in Martial Arts, (started boxing at the age of three, my father was a famous pro) and after 25 years teaching as a DT Instructor, and having Mastered several different forms of Combat and Martial Arts I can say that I have seen small men of great skill beat large men of great skill, I think the small man does recognize his limitations and to that it is his advantage. As it may be the attitude of a larger man when looking and sizing up his smaller opponent automatically assuming that because he is bigger will just crush his smaller opponent, may be his downfall. Though I would not stand there and trade blows from an upright boxing stance with either men in the video, there is much more to fighting than just punching someone in the head. As I reviewed the video it is my opinion that neither man possessed great fighting skills. Yes they were large....yes if they connect with a punch they are bound to do damage, but as far as fighting skills, tactics, etc...I'm sorry I just didn't see it. I think both men would easily fall to a smaller , skilled and trained person involved in the arts. So I respectfully have to disagree and repeat...that to the trained and skilled, size doesn't matter.

michael
07-25-2004, 07:08 PM
I have to agree with Doc on this one. I too have seen and fought many skilled and unskilled, large and small guys on the street. I'm a medium sized guy, 5'10" and about 180-185 lbs. I had far more trouble with guys my size or smaller than with the larger, bodybuilder types. If you have good skills, are well-conditioned, strong for your size, have the "killer instinct" and are willing to impart great force and violence in reckless abandon on your enemy, size is not a major factor. You have to use what you've got--if you're smaller, you will need to depend upon your superior conditioning, skill, speed and use angles and balance to defeat your attacker. It ultimately comes down to the man, his heart, determination and skill, not the size.

michael
07-25-2004, 07:40 PM
True, but the day you encounter a larger, stronger opponent with equal or greater intent you are going to be hurt very badly as there is no physical way for you to withstand the damage, without luck or a mistake on the opponents part it will become a very painful lesson.
I believe this to be true, but after 12 years of working the projects as a beat cop and being in more fights than I can remember, it never happened. I've been in some bad ones and had injuries, but always was fortunate and came out on top. I truely believe that when one has the mindset, skill, fitness and determination, this can mitigate the size factor. In a "match fight" in NHB competitons, wrestling or boxing, it makes a huge difference. I don't go around looking for trouble, but if it comes my way I am more than willing to take it as far as I have to so that I come out on top. If that means unto death, then so be it. I don't fight for fun and don't fight if I can avoid it, but am always prepared and train for that eventuality. If I am attacked, it will not be for some "slight" or ego thing, it will mean that someone wants me dead and will be treated as such. My Lord and Savior has always given me the strength to prevail and I believe that He always will.

DaveJames
07-25-2004, 07:54 PM
SB, sorry didn't mean to forget any body.

Paul, some how I knew it, may have been just the verbage used, by the on lookers.. Yep crack will wear'em down

Any body who has had to fight for his life knows, that its like football, "Any given Day", I was know for awhile in VA, to have been the only Cop who took on and beat the Pagans enforcer,, but that don't mean dick,, cause less then 3 weeks later, I had a 4'11" korean beat the snot out of me..

The whole point of the film is to understand, pain is not enought to make people stop fighting,and in a fight with these guys,its very seldom one you walk away from

michael
07-26-2004, 06:21 AM
Dave makes a very good point about pain and relying on it to end a fight. Many people who fight often and particularly those who box or kickbox professionally or even semi-professionally, can take punches to the head hard and often with almost no effect. When I trained in Krav Maga, one of the instuctors was a professinal fighter who fought in both boxing and MMA fights. He is a big guy, about 6'2 and 220 lbs of solid, well-conditioned muscle, and he could take shots to the head all day long. However, he was very susceptible to other things. He told me that the cartilage in his nose had been broken so much that he felt nothing when hit in the head. Streetfighters like the guys on the video are the same way. Generally they can withstand head shots, but are not used to being hit in other places like throat, collarbone, knees, shins, etc.

sween1911
07-26-2004, 07:33 AM
This thread is truly beneficial for those of us with zero experience and minimal instruction on the real dynamics of a fight, and what a large attacker is capable of. I'm glad to see here how far behind the curve I am, instead of learning the hard way.

mk86fcc
07-26-2004, 09:27 AM
I dunno. Just finished watching it, and although I'm no expert, I didn't really see much skill displayed. A lot of brute strength; and it's obvious both these knuckleheads flunked out of Pain Compliance School, but no real skill. Don't get me wrong - if confronted with either one of 'em, I'd either shoot or run like the wind (I have a firm grasp of my limitations, and I graduated Pain Compliance School with High Honors :rolleyes: .).

Paco
07-26-2004, 02:54 PM
David, thanks for the Molson details. And therein lies a key point. You took a helluva shot and could still dominate the sucker puncher. IMO - principally because of your mass. That shot into my mug, balanced as it is on about a 17 1/2 " neck and I'm probably looking at the grouse.

A question to michael with the beat cop experience and anyone else with an opinion - - - from my own training, witnessing an average sized San Antonio cop easily handle a much larger bodybuilder run amok and watching a fair amount of video from dash mounted cameras and the reality police shows, I developed a hunch about police experience in HTH altercations vs civilian assaults. Just a hunch. This hunch suggests to me that your police experience may not have all that much relevence to what I might face alone against this worst case scenario.

My impression is that much of the time, there is a somewhat different . . . what am I looking for here . . . pace or tempo to many of the LEO vs thug fights than a full on criminal assault on a law abiding civvie. Like the BG's are resisting but often they do not appear to be in a full on raging fight. So they are taken down and subdued, usually handily.

The few examples when the BG did appear to be "full on" the fight looked very different than the half fight resisting.

My hunch is that this is why police defensive tactics work pretty well for police but trying to go to pain compliance holds as a civilian being attacked is generally inferior to more violent and impact oriented counters. And why whatever benefit a Kubotan is to an LEO, it is of little use to a civilian under assault other than with yarawa techniques.

I guess I'm suggesting that if an LEO is trying to arrest a Kimbo clone, he may have backup and the implied possibility of clubbing, pepper spraying or ultimately shooting the perp ----- and this creates a different atomosphere/attitude than when such a perp launches on a civilian to obliterate them and take their wallet, car, woman, etc. Also the BG knows that if he gives up, he's relatively safe from further harm whereas against a non-LEO to lose could be to be finished off.

Sorry if I'm babbling, I'll delete this if we can't make any sense of it. But I've been guilty of depending too much on LE defensive tactics and only full bore sparing with a padded and larger training partner opened my eyes to the futility of going for some of those holds and my jujutsu too soon. (except for neck cranks and chokes which I have only great regards for)

Al Lipscomb
07-26-2004, 06:39 PM
I dunno. Just finished watching it, and although I'm no expert, I didn't really see much skill displayed.

Watch why some of those punches miss!

As for the importance of size, I don't know of any competitive fighting system that does not have weight divisions. A smaller fighter needs to have more speed, more skill and more aggression. Size is not everything but there is nothing to stop a big guy from having everything else the little guy has, but more of it.

michael
07-26-2004, 07:54 PM
Paco, I agree with you to a degree about police fights vs. civilian fights. There are really a few different types of altercations you deal with as a cop. Firstly, there is the guy who is drunk or for whatever reason does not want to go to jail, but is not actively resisting. He may "stiffen up" to avoid being cuffed or try to twist away and does not actively fight. This is the majority of altercations the officer has to deal with, and pain compliance works well most of the time. Secondly, you have the guy who REALLY doesn't want to go to jail and may flee only to be chased down, or who may scuffle with you in an attempt to get away. He is still not real committed to the fight, and can be put down with pepper spray, a pain compliance technique or one or two hard strikes. He quickly reconsiders his negative attitude. Lastly, you have the guy who has been in prison, is a hard-core gang-banger, steroid enraged, iron-stoked and bent on killing you or doing ANYTHING to get away. If he has to kill you in the process, it's just the cost of doing business. He won't lose any sleep over it and will probably brag to his homies about the cop he beat down. Yeah, I had to deal with a lot of those too. You face them all, hopefully with back-up but often alone--that's just the way it happens sometimes. And you better be in shape, have the right mindset, physical condition and skills to go all the way, because he does.


By and large, cops deal with the first and second types. Most police officers can handle these guys, though sometimes not very well. Sad fact of life, but most officers cannot fight all that well. When most run into type number three, they are in trouble without help. Fortunately, most never do unless you work an active project area like I did, in which case you better be ready.

A civilian can also have to deal with all three. It may be a homeless guy trying to get a little money, but not really capable of doing much. He may be intoxicated and can be shoved down or avoided rather easily. It could be a drunk guy that physically assaults you but quickly changes his mind after a little pain is inflicted on him. Or it could be the hard-core, trained and fit ex-prison guy who will take your life for fun. They are all out there, and we have to be ready. Train for the worst and pray for the best.

DaveJames
07-26-2004, 09:44 PM
mk, you say no skill, how many people do you know that will stand there and take a beating? And these guys are buddies. Its like Foreman used to say,all it takes is one punch,those guys were doing it for fun, if they come after you on the street,their intent is plain and simple, its to take you out, and take from you what they want.

Like others have posted luckly most of us don't face these guys or gals on a regular base, but when you do, your inner being will know, we always knew when we got in a fire fight in RVN, weather it was Vietcong or North Viet regulars,just because of the vilonce or force used, same goes for the street.

Charles Rives
07-27-2004, 01:05 AM
I downloaded a copy of the clip and saved it under the file name: WhyDidYouShootThatUnarmedMan.mpg.

It will provide a graphic depiction of why lethal force might be necessary to prevent "death or grave bodily injury" by an unarmed attacker.

Chuck

mk86fcc
07-27-2004, 02:42 AM
Dave, arl -
I also qualified my remarks with "I'm no expert" - I really meant that. I guess what I was trying to say was that what they may have lacked in finesse (for lack of a better word), they more than made up for in absolute brute force. Either one of them looked like they would take my ASP away from me and break it - so I believe if that was my only option I'd seriously consider "Engaging sneakers, Warp Factor 9." (I'd hate doin' it, but sometimes "living to fight another day" is the best option.)

Dr. Snubnose
07-27-2004, 03:22 AM
Doesn't take much skill to take a beating, unless you call brain dead a skill. I remember some years ago sitting at a red light across from a truck (similiar to the ones used by UPS) a fellow from the car behind that truck ran out of his car and into the truck and started pounding away on the head and face of the truck driver. I was amazed....the driver never took his hands from the wheel, (not even to fend off the strikes) the light turns green and he just started driving away as the other fellow leaped from the truck so as not to leave his own car behind. The driver must have been struck 6 or 7 times. I think if you polled most people and asked them to define a fight, most would say...You hit the guy in the head and he falls down....the conceptual idea that a block might be needed doesn't even enter the realm of most people's thoughts. To absorb blows like a punching bag and not be able to defend oneself is not a skill. It shows lack of skills. Kinda like a gunfight...the objective is not to get hit...

V42
07-27-2004, 10:55 AM
To absorb blows like a punching bag and not be able to defend oneself is not a skill. It shows lack of skills.

What it means is when talking about the people in the video is that they can take a lot of punishment and keep coming. And when you are talking about people who can inflict as much punishment unarmed as the guys on those videos you can have a real problem if you are facing them.

And most people who post under anonymous names and try to infer that their decades of martial arts training makes them invincible ain't.

Al Lipscomb
07-27-2004, 11:22 AM
Dave, arl -
I also qualified my remarks with "I'm no expert" - I really meant that. I guess what I was trying to say was that what they may have lacked in finesse (for lack of a better word), they more than made up for in absolute brute force.

See but that is my point. Some people are saying that the big guy is just trading shots with the other guy. But when you start looking at it he is doing a good job of making those punches miss.

Jujutsuka
07-27-2004, 02:00 PM
Size does not matter to the trained and skilled.
I have to disagree. As a TMA, and someone who trains NHB and MMA- size, strength, speed, have a LOT to do with real life encounters. Don't get me wrong, technique is *very* important (anyone nee Nougera beat Sapp?), but if you think that technique alone will always win...it's simply not the case.

DaveJames
07-27-2004, 09:15 PM
David, the first time was up in the triangle,we were doing a sneak and peek, and stepped into an ambush, within about 10 seconds we knew, it was to well planed,and vicious, and when we boke they pursued,longer than norm,, the whole time we came say to our self's, "Who the hell are theses guys?",, from then on it didn't take any time at all to know who you were up against once the bullets started

mk, okay now I understand what you meant,

The sliping the punch thing, does come thru once you look for it, and he more than likely wasn't going full out, their buddies.
You meet him on the street and its going to be full tilt boogie.

And with his cousin,teach'n him and the practice they get in prison, its time for a LAW's rocket if you have one :D

Charles an excellent idea, also had a lawyer buddy tell me to copy an of the video that comes up on local guys play'n wrestler in the back yard games.Theres another group of nut cases

Bri Thai
07-28-2004, 03:29 AM
The SIZE debate.

Does size matter? In order to keep this thread on track re the fight, I'll start another thread.

DaveJames
07-29-2004, 12:36 AM
Paul, thanks, thats interesting, kind of like the bare knuckle bar fights we get here from time to time

InTheBlack
08-06-2004, 11:19 PM
"The requested URL /kimbo.wmv was not found on this server."

Anybody have a copy they can put up somewhere for a while? How big is the file?

V42
08-06-2004, 11:46 PM
http://www.sublimedirectory.com/basement/media/kimbo.wmv

Clay
08-07-2004, 05:22 AM
Can someone send this to me as an attachment, or send me a link? I couldn't get the others to work.

cahufford@msn.com

Thanks a bunch,
Clay

V42
08-07-2004, 03:53 PM
http://www.sublimedirectory.com/basement/media/kimbo.wmv

InTheBlack
08-09-2004, 09:43 PM
Just downloaded the file but it opened a browser window & sent the raw code. Saved as Text, but file opens the code in a browser window.

I HATE dealing with graphics files... wmv is especially screwy.