PDA

View Full Version : Tactical Reloads



kforbus
03-02-2004, 05:46 PM
I just got done reading an article in Handgunner pertaining to tactical reloads. I was wondering how many of the trainers here teach it and do you think it has a legitimate place in training?

686shooter
03-02-2004, 07:48 PM
I teach it, it's just another tool in the toolbox.

DaveJames
03-02-2004, 09:44 PM
Same as 686, nothing learned is ever a watse

TxCop312
03-03-2004, 01:45 AM
It's mandatory at my PD. It's incorporated into our quals. Anyone going armed should know how. It's much easier to have the ammo in the gun and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Orive 8
03-03-2004, 07:36 AM
We teach both the tactical reload and the empty reload.

kforbus
03-03-2004, 01:39 PM
Was wondering beacuse I read the Isrealis quit teaching it and load from slide lock due to the fact that people were getting shot trying to perform it under stress, as the article said, it's not a basic monkey function although slamming a new one in as in clapping hands is one of those basic functions.

Always interested in learning something new.

InTheBlack
03-07-2004, 01:11 AM
The persecuting attorney will surely assert that since you had the presence of mind not to shoot the gun empty, you must not _really_ have been in fear for your life :(

DaveJames
03-07-2004, 04:39 AM
Well I have never seen or heard of that popping up in a case, not to say some smart as "CA" wouldn't try it hear. but it does work if you practice it .I had a troop get invovled in a shooting about 10 years ago in the back of a Mickey-D's, no back up could get to him, and it was 3 "BG's", we carried the 220"s at that time and 4 mag's, when it was all said and done, he had done, the tac load three times and was on his last full mag. THe one thing he keep talking about during de-brief was every time he moved behind another piece of cover he "tac", and even had the presence of mind to pull the 2 partial mags out of his pocket and load one up to max

686shooter
03-07-2004, 06:17 PM
I finally read the article kforbus has been talking about. here's my take on all this. The article has some good points, and the methods above are valid methods also. The main thing is the ability to keep one's head under stress. Any technique can be an asset or a detriment in certain situations. So with each technique you learn or teach think of the situations you may or may not want to use each technique. One trainer told me keep adding tools to the toolbox.You just don't know when they may come in handy. One question for the Isreali's comes to my mind. Do they let their shooters move from cover to cover with partially spent mags? Are they having their shooters count each round they fire? See how we could over think this to death. I say learn all the different techniques you can and learn to perform them smoothly IMHO.

kforbus
03-07-2004, 06:34 PM
I still practise them all. I just though tit would be a good conversation piece :D .

I do need to practise more on the Tac Reload. I am horrible at it and if I were better I would have probably classified as an Expert in IDPA.

So today at the range I spent 150 rounds practising just that plus more when I got home. Yesterday I was about 6 seconds off during a classifier to make expert. Maybe next time.

Deaf Smith
03-07-2004, 07:07 PM
kforbus,

Here is a suggestion. The way I practice reloads is I put one round in each magazine (I have 9 practice mags for my Glock 17.) I draw, fire one and the weapon goes to slide lock, then drop the mag, reload, and fire another, drop mag, reload, fire another. I do this for 50 rounds! Yes, it takes a while to fire 50 that way, all the time shooting at IDPA targets.

Then for tac-load, I fully load the mags, fire one, tac-load, fire one, tac-load, fire one-tac load... Another 50 rounds!

Other days, while practicing barricades, or kneeling behind barrels, I do tac-loads after each run. When moving from cover to cover and firing, I tac-load at each cover.

I also practice these things in the garage (no ammo anywhere in the garage!!!!) If my wife had not bought the sit down type of leg exerciser, I would have gotten the 'bicycle' type and practice reloads while riding the exercise bike!

Now the thing is, actually using tac-loads will be rare (in fact, I suspect I'll never fire a shot in anger in my life.) Since my carry guns hold 10 or more rounds, I honestly don't think I'll ever speed load either. But, IDPA is IDPA, and I to want to win. So, practice practice practice!

Hope that helps.

Yamdog
03-07-2004, 08:41 PM
I use and teach the tactical reload at my department. We give the officer the choice of which technique to use. For LEO things may be a little different than others because once we shoot someone we have to go handcuff them. Since I don't expect folks to count their rounds, I suggest they simply do a tac load prior to approach. I can't tell you how many times bad guys had to be shot again after they were put down once. Locally it has happened at least twice.

InTheBlack
03-08-2004, 05:43 AM
Deaf-- now there's a really excellent idea. Ought to be posted somewhere on its own--

While using a Nordic Track or a treadmill, use the BeamHit laser to practice firing on the move, and do tac reloads as well.

CarlosDJackal
03-08-2004, 06:42 AM
I teach it, it's just another tool in the toolbox.

Ditto!! Whether conducting a Tactical Reload, Reload with Retention, or Modified Speed Reload (that's what I call the technique where you drop the depleted magazine to the ground and pick it up should the situation allows for it). When I teach these I mak a lot of effort to point out what type of situations these are appropriate for.

The contreversy about these reloads stem from the inclusion of these skills in the IDPA. The way they are used give people the idea that these should be conducted under fire (i.e. on the clock).

I feel that instructors who teach these techniques without emphasizing where they fit in the tactical scheme of things are doing their students great dis-service.

InTheBlack
03-08-2004, 06:49 AM
Deaf-- now there's a really excellent idea. Ought to be posted somewhere on its own--

While using a Nordic Track or a treadmill, use the BeamHit laser to practice firing on the move, and do tac reloads as well.

Deaf Smith
03-08-2004, 04:39 PM
InTheBlack,

Just about any technique where you have dexterity can, and needs, to be isolated and practiced quite a bit. Even the draw should be isolated now and then and effort made to prefect it. I do mean several minutes just on drawing correctly and quickly.

Take drawing weak handed (from a strong sided holster.) Once you experiment and see which way you can do this (front roll over, rear draw, front side pull and reverse, etc..) then, with a VERY UNLOADED weapon, practice for several minuets in the garage. Schedule a training regime to have certain things practiced each practice session and over a period of time everything will be covered (but put the more important things first and more often!)

Or take weak or strong hand only reloading. Same empty gun, same garage, also spend several minutes. I allocate one training session per quarterly for 'odd ball' things like the above.

I find this takes time for such a technique to internalize. And even then, really understanding it takes longer. And yes, it's a zen thing.

StealthF2
03-08-2004, 06:16 PM
Deaf, I like your regimen--but the one thing I've never had, to my eternal consternation, is a routine. :(

My real intro to the various reloads was at F$. I was fine with their tac reload (index fresh mag, drop depleted into palm, grip it between your middle and ring fingers, roll the hand, etc.) until I learned Bill Wilson's tac reload on a Lenny Magill video (index fresh mag, drop depleted mag into palm at web of thumb and index finger, strip mag with thumb and index, roll...). That makes more sense to me in terms of skill retention under stress, and better suited to pistols whose mags may not drop free.

A couple of issues ago, Police Marksman magazine had an article about a "real-world" tactical reload--which I believe is the same thing Carlos called the modified SR. They also suggested a full-hand grip on the new mag, rather than a dainty indexing grip. Their rationale was based on the "no fine motor skills" argument, and that makes sense to me. It also fits with the speed reload technique Demi Barbito espouses (I hope I'm remembering this correctly): He strips the depleted mag from the pistol with his support hand, then goes for the fresh mag, to ensure that you don't try to double-feed your mags. (If I've erred here, it may be that this is only for slide-locked speed reloads. Feel free to school me if necessary.)

I'd prefer to keep all my mags and rounds as close to my person as possible (who knows where that mag will bounce off to?), but I'll likely need to let the situation dictate. As mentioned numerous times, it's useful--nay, critical--to learn as much as you can, determine what works best for you, then incorporate that into your toolbox.

My $0.02.

Deaf Smith
03-08-2004, 07:23 PM
StealthF2,

I just got my left handed Glock 17 holser in this evening (yes, yes, yes!) So, out in the garage I went through 45 min. of left handed practice (I have a Fobus, yuck, left handed holster, but I got a great mirror image of my Blade-Tech from a wholesaler) in the garage. Still have the Fobus left handed mag pouch, but that will have to do.

Why left handed? I have found teaching my left hand how to do it correctly helps my right hand! I do the exact same routines, but left side. This is another part of the routine. I set a IDPA target on top of a garbage can, and use 'bob' the Century dummy (one of my sparring partners) as the other target. I have my Century mat that I use for judo as the drop cloth to drop mags on instead of cement! I shoot a few matchs a year left handed (local ones so I don't get to embarrised!)

Routine is good for you. I picked this up from teaching TKD for years. You have to set up a regime and over a set period of time go through all the 'tools' you feel you need to master. I do lots of gun handling in the garage, and in the late spring/summer I do in in the barn. There I can practice lots of moving techniques.

I also have a second Glock 17, the real compeition gun, with a laser (cheep one) attached to the trigger guard. I use that for hip shooting practice in the garage and barn and for practicing moving techniques. The pressure pad is on the trigger itself, and I 'fire' the gun! I've set it up to shoot where the sights look.

I got the laser at Academy Sports. Something like $30 bucks (I find you need to practice as cheep as you can so you can practice as much as you can afford!) Same for targets. Lots of mine are computer paper bottoms they give my at work (stacks of 'em!) I also have a AACK .22 unit so when I practice my retention/hip shooting, I shoot cheep!

CarlosDJackal
03-09-2004, 05:09 PM
Well I have never seen or heard of that popping up in a case, not to say some smart as "CA" wouldn't try it hear. but it does work if you practice it .I had a troop get invovled in a shooting about 10 years ago in the back of a Mickey-D's, no back up could get to him, and it was 3 "BG's", we carried the 220"s at that time and 4 mag's, when it was all said and done, he had done, the tac load three times and was on his last full mag. THe one thing he keep talking about during de-brief was every time he moved behind another piece of cover he "tac", and even had the presence of mind to pull the 2 partial mags out of his pocket and load one up to max

Out of curiosity, was this what he was actually trained to do?

DaveJames
03-09-2004, 09:54 PM
CD, the tac loads yes, it was a requirment when we switch over to the SIG's, reloading the partial mag, nope we don't teach that,in the debrief he stated he felt like that was the thing to do while he could

billcameron
03-10-2004, 12:23 AM
I do not like tactical reload. I am afraid I will do one of two things. 1. Drop fully loaded magazine on the ground, while juggling both mags 2. take out partially loaded magazine and put partially loaded magazine back in the gun. Yes I may need ammo in partially loaded magazine, but risk of doing point 1 or 2 outweighs potential need of ammo in partially loaded mag. And of course I still may be able to pick partially loaded mag up off the ground. Also as civilian I will not be pressing the fight as LEO may, so need for ammo beyond one reload is pretty remote.

kforbus
03-11-2004, 06:29 PM
I have re-read the article and did four types of reloads, speed reload, slide lock, with retention and tactical. I think if I have to top off I would opt for the with with retention, drop the partial magazine and if times and circumstances permit, pick it up before I move. I have a fully topped off weapon without the problems that can occur while trying to tactical reload with two magazines in my hand. Taking the empty out stuffing it, then reloading is to time consuming and for obvious reasons not slide lock if I have the wits to know how many rounds I have fired.

I have had malfunctions caused from trying to fumble two magazines and reloading. I have cut my hand (superficial) and bleed a bit. I say KISS (keep it simple stupid).

Bill Stringer
03-12-2004, 07:33 AM
I have re-read the article and did four types of reloads, speed reload, slide lock, with retention and tactical. I think if I have to top off I would opt for the with with retention, drop the partial magazine and if times and circumstances permit, pick it up before I move. I have a fully topped off weapon without the problems that can occur while trying to tactical reload with two magazines in my hand. Taking the empty out stuffing it, then reloading is to time consuming and for obvious reasons not slide lock if I have the wits to know how many rounds I have fired.

I have had malfunctions caused from trying to fumble two magazines and reloading. I have cut my hand (superficial) and bleed a bit. I say KISS (keep it simple stupid).

Hey Ken,

I'll keep to the orignal post. I teach Tac Reload as part of all classes. The way I look at it is, look at the student and customize to the individual. Like a good number of you I carry for protection and as part of my job. I see the Tac Reload as a must. I'm not one of those who have 100 rounds on me. I found out the hard way every round counts.