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jasonhgross
05-18-2006, 01:03 PM
Lets assume the following scenario:

You need a weapon for home defense. You already have a pistol and a rifle. But you must consider this. Assume you may have to shoot somebody who has gained wrongful entry to your premises. In the civil court case, an attorney judge holds up to a relatively liberally loaded jury your weapon of choice. hey says "Mr. Home Defender shot my client with THIS (holds Up) weapon. The jury reaction may be largely dependant upon the aesthetics of the weapon, its apparent malevolence or benevolence.

You need the most effective weapon that will minimize the damage done in court by its mere appearance. My argument is this: the shotgun (perhaps in wood format) looks the least consipicuous of any weapon shown to the average citizen. Therefore, it may in fact be the winner in court, all other things being the same.

Yes I like my carbines. But I have the suspicion that the wood clad shotgun may very well be the most acceptable to average joe citizen.

Impressions?

Treyarch
05-18-2006, 01:57 PM
I think you need to be more careful about when the use of force is justified and make sure that you are a law abiding citizen with no guns that are illegal in your area.

Then use a 590 with a 9 shot tube, flashlight, side saddle and a tritium front bead, and a pistol grip w/ colapsing stock to kill the baddie.

Your behavior, before-during-after the incident will be more critical than your gun.

MTS
05-18-2006, 03:17 PM
A lot will depend on where you live as well.

jasonhgross
05-18-2006, 03:30 PM
I live just outside PC Virginia. Yes all my guns ar 100% legal in every shape and form. Is not the choice of weapon conduct in and of itself? IE: jury sees person who chose wood furniture shotgun, could be a legit hunting gun. or, jury sees nice man in suit who used a 30 shot clip swat looking gun. Says something about the person (gung ho wannabe mall ninja or just regular guy who had shotgun)?

S-Lee
05-18-2006, 03:35 PM
I use a standard Remy 870 with Surefire forend. the light is a must since you want to identify what you might be shooting at. other then that, a Jr. stock to shorten the pull is all I done.

William Carter
05-18-2006, 05:33 PM
I guess it's different in every state, but in general Mas Ayoob and others who study shooting aftermath in court say whatever the police use in your area is defendable in court.For static defense a shotgun is hard to beat but a handgun is much more practicle if you have to search the house or flip a light switch or heard family into a safe room.Something to consider is in a pinch can the wife handle that 12 ga.Most often no.Beretta makes a nice pistol cal carbine.Short controlable and accurate.Is it as powerful as a shotgun;not hardly.It may seem like a small consideration now but shotgun or ar15 shot inside and you better hope you don't need to hear anything soon.Possible perm. hearing loss.Every situation is different.Try to shoot that pumpgun from an awkward position at the range.prone;with possible injury.1 handed etc.Just a thought.

LawDog
05-22-2006, 06:49 PM
I have dreamed up the perfect PC home defense gun. Now all I need is a truckload of capital, lots of machine tools and expertise in engineering. Here is my idea:

A bottom-ejecting semi-auto 12 ga. shotgun, built in a way that it appears to be an over-under double-barrel shotgun. The magazine tube is disguised to look like the lower barrel. Pretty wood with lots of character. Deep carbona bluing, polished up like a mirror. A tactical light that was purpose built into the end of the magazine tube, slightly recessed from the false muzzle, with a small and unobtrusive momentary-on switch built into the foregrip.

With an 18" barrel and a shortened stock, it would just look like a miniature sporting clays gun. Take it quail hunting once, just so you can honestly call it your bird gun.

MTS
05-22-2006, 09:43 PM
I have dreamed up the perfect PC home defense gun. Now all I need is a truckload of capital, lots of machine tools and expertise in engineering. Here is my idea:

A bottom-ejecting semi-auto 12 ga. shotgun, built in a way that it appears to be an over-under double-barrel shotgun. The magazine tube is disguised to look like the lower barrel. Pretty wood with lots of character. Deep carbona bluing, polished up like a mirror. A tactical light that was purpose built into the end of the magazine tube, slightly recessed from the false muzzle, with a small and unobtrusive momentary-on switch built into the foregrip.

With an 18" barrel and a shortened stock, it would just look like a miniature sporting clays gun. Take it quail hunting once, just so you can honestly call it your bird gun.

Ithaca 37 pumps are bottom ejecting, perhaps that could be your starting platform?

Anthony
05-23-2006, 12:02 PM
Ithaca 37 pumps are bottom ejecting, perhaps that could be your starting platform?

Of all the modern pump action shotguns that I have owned, this was my favorite.
My favorite pump of all time was my Winchester 1897 ( built in 1897,) with British straight stock ( no pistol grip,) & Victorian Black powder proof marks. - Financial problems led me to sell it to a friend here in Rio. :(
Regards,
Anthony.

Lou Costello
05-23-2006, 12:54 PM
I try to keep up to date on shootings in my area. I can't recall where the type of weapon involved in the shooting made a whole lot of difference IF the incident came to trial.

Most shootings in my area are drug/gang related. We don't have 'liberal' juries in my area. Most are very conservative. Most are victims of crime or have close relatives and friends who were victims. Many have had their homes broken into. That's the way the jury pool is. They don't care if a BG is shot with a legal, illegal, bad looking or whatever weapon.

Legitimate home defense cases in my area are NOT prosecuted. Maybe Ayoob is talking about San Francisco or Beverely Hills?

ccwinmemphis
05-24-2006, 04:43 AM
In my home state of Tennessee, any forcible entry into an individual's home while they are present is deemed an appropriate circumstance for lethal force. Furthermore, in TN, if there are no criminial charges, a civil suit cannot be brought against the shooter. For the circumstance you suggest, in TN the only requirement is that the home defense weapon be legal and effective.

In a more general circumstances, the type of gun is much less important than the specific circumstances that justified the use of lethal force. "Would a reasonable person have shot this person in the same circumstances ?" "Was the shooter seen an having made reasonable attempts to avoid and disengage, rather than escalate the pre-fight engagement ?" "Did the shooter know the person who was shot, and what was their prior relationship all about " These are the type of things the police and jury will focus upon.

pete f
06-21-2006, 10:44 PM
I talk to a lot of cops and others involved in the criminal justice system in my role as a youth sports coach. Seems a lot of cops and DA'a/CA's do the same. I have asked several about this type of scenario and I get the same thing. In Minnesota where I live, None of the cops or prosecutors can remember bringing charges against a homeowner/business owner who shot a BG in the commision of a felony. We have a reluctant participant clause and a duty to retreat, but when honest Joe Citizen pops a bad guy in his home or place of business, charges just do not get pressed here. I am sure it has happened, but they could not remember it. We have had guys shoot people with shotguns, SKS, handguns, deer rifles, has not seemed to make a difference. Shooter is in the right, charges not filed. ONLY time anyone could remember charges were against a Home owner who shot a Kid who brandished a pistol on his steps, but kid was apparently upset that the crack or crank he had just purchased was elmers glue or something.

HUSS
06-24-2006, 05:31 PM
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/78284/automatic_shotgun/

this should do the trick

rarbolay
06-27-2006, 03:22 AM
So, continuing on the theme of the thread then. Wouldnt a shotgun (ideally wood stock) be a preferable weapon in a justifiable homicide case than a carbine? A carbine or battle rifle is a better combat weapon and a better tool at over 100 meter range but, in what case of self defense could you conceivably justify shooting the BG at 100 meters or more? I can think of no situation were I could look at a jury of 12 and say , I was afraid for my life thats why I shot him at 200 meters. Given that, wouldnt a shotgun be the defacto ideal self defense weapon? Add to that the availability of purpose geared ammo (00 buc, slugs #1 buck) and less than lethal ammo (rubber balls and bird shot) wouldnt the shotgun then become THE Personal Defense Weapon?

Lou Costello
06-27-2006, 11:19 AM
rar - you asked several questions. Allow me to answer one.

"in what case of self defense could you conceivably justify shooting the BG at 100 meters or more?"

A little story which I once told on WT.

During the Newark Race Riots of 1967, the rioters shot at police and tossed firebombs at them. The NPD backed off and let the rioters roam free, looting houses and stores and setting some on fire.

When the rioters reached the Newark Ironbound section they were met by some old World War II vets, blue collar types, who weren't about to let anybody burn their houses down or harm their families. These vets had once faced Nazi SS troopers or Japanese banzai charges. As the rioters tried to enter the neighborhood, a few were shot down from a distance, maybe a block or two away. The rioters quickly retreated.

Days later, bodies which had apparently been stuffed into manholes showed up at the sewage treatment plant or floating in Newark Bay.

Later the 50th Armored Division showed up with 18,000 troops. There is something to be said when a company of M-48 tanks rolls down a cobblestone street.

Testify in court? What? The rule of law had broken down and some decent people protected their families and property. Nothing came of the shootings.

End of story.

rarbolay
06-28-2006, 04:03 AM
but now, with politically correct courts and sue happy citzenry, I dont think I would risk it. Lets remember that this is the same environment were NOPD decided to disarm peacefull citizens IN THEIR HOME, while the law and order had broken down due to a national disaster. Would I want to face a jury of 12 after shooting some "poor, underprivilege, minority classed" fire bomber at 100 plus yards? I certainly dont see how. Of course that is not to say that I am going to pawn off my rifles. 30-06 is a wonderfull hunting cartridge that happens, by coincidence, to be the battle rifle cartridge of WW2. But I would certainly carry a shotgun instead of a rifle.

Cold War Scout
06-28-2006, 06:10 AM
I think the focus of the original post was civil cases. And there are plenty of civil actions filed, even if criminal ones are not.

I think the original post raises an interesting point. It translates to the same issue discussed vis-a-vis folding knives. Is it more difficult to successfully present yourself as a citizen carrying a utility knife, if that folding knife you carry is a black Cold Steel Voyager with 6" blade, or a sky blue Yojimbo with 2.88" blade? These are valid points for consideration depending upon where you are.

Guantes
06-28-2006, 08:10 PM
In civil cases, I have to agree with CWS, location is a very important consideration.

In some areas a quail gun would be called excessive against dope addict Johnny who was about to change and become a brain surgeon. In other areas a brush hog would be considered reasonable.

firebird6
06-29-2006, 09:17 PM
I ve practiced law since 1989. I reinterate that in case someone has forgotten. Let me relay some of my experiences.

The most critical issue in your case will not be your guilt or innocence but how the case looks to the media and whether or not the prosecutor thinks he can win. Loosing on Appeal is okay, as long as you (the home owner / defendant) take the perp walk after the Jury finds you guilty.

All self defense trials have the following in common:

The prosector is a pip squeak jerk who knows nothing about guns, or a screaming liberal gun hating feminazi.

Anything the defendant has said or done, or that can be documented that the defendant has said or done, (including attending or not attending a shooting self defense school) can and will be used against him by the prosecuter. (especially in an election year in a high profile case.)

Your gun choice WILL be an issue. Your training will be an issue. The number of firearms in your collection will be an issue. Any posts you make on this forum will be an issue. Any disagreements you have had with persons in the community regarding firearms will be an issue.

Study this, chant this, live this. This is your mantra. This is what you can do to protect yourself:

1) Do not shoot until you absolutly have to to save your life, a third persons life or to prevent serious bodily injury to same.

2) Hire an experienced criminal defense attorney, and an expert witness. They can defuse the prosecutors grand standing. Find out who the police in your area use in officer shootings, its the best place to start.

I can go on. But I shall stop here.

FB6

ccwinmemphis
06-30-2006, 05:38 AM
The prosector is a pip squeak jerk who knows nothing about guns, or a screaming liberal gun hating feminazi.
FB6

I can only imagine how true this must be.


Your training will be an issue. FB6

How does this work ? Can too much high quality training be used against you ?


The number of firearms in your collection will be an issue.FB6

How could a prosecutor get this information ? I would assume that a locked safe would be private without a specific search order to get into it.


Any posts you make on this forum will be an issue. FB6

Wow ! Do you really think they could find this site and an individual's posts, and use that info ? That really has implications about posting on this site and others like it.



I can go on. But I shall stop here. FB6

Keep on going, this is useful info.

MTS
06-30-2006, 07:54 AM
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by firebird6
The number of firearms in your collection will be an issue.FB6
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

How could a prosecutor get this information ? I would assume that a locked safe would be private without a specific search order to get into it.

If the shooting occurs in your house the number of firearms in your house can be discover during the crime scene investigation.

MTS
06-30-2006, 12:56 PM
Is a locked gun safe typically required to be opened during an initial investigation after a SD shooting in a home?

If the investigating officers wish too, yes. Understand that in a shooting there is not an small initial investigation then another larger one at a later date. The investigation will be done immediately and control of the house will not be returned to you until it is completed.

That is not to say that the LEOs will not return at a future date for some sort of follow up either.


Does it require a warrant in this case or is that just part of the std. paperwork available when they arrive?

I have to believe that there is a standard issue signed warrant that someone just pulls from a cabinet and fills in the blanks with
the address and items. (same thing as getting one after the fact).

I've never heard of any kind of search warrant being gotten/required during a crime scene investigation. I also am not a crime scene investigator. My duties after securing the scene, calling supervisiors etc. always found me at the outer edge of the scene, guarding the perimeter, watching witnesses, etc.

firebird6
07-01-2006, 01:41 AM
I will try to respond to some of the questions I saw, and qualify a few statements I made. I am afraid I may have opened a can of worms that might lead to a book. God help me. <GABE here opportunity making money insert>:eek:

If you are prosecuted for a shooting wherein you intend to use "self defense" as an excusitory or exculpitory defense, YOU WILL perceive the prosecutor as a pip squeak etc, or a feminazi. (Thats tautological, anyone who attacks me is my enemy.) How the prosecutors momma percieves him or her will likely be different. But get this point. Barbara Striesand is less likely to be sympathtic to you shooting someone in your house, than Dick Cheney. And Babs is much more likely to file a criminal case against you and let you plead self defense to the jury.

A "good" prosecutor will make the decision to file based on the facts and circumstances of the shoot and not based on the media or whether he thinks he can spin the case to get the conviction. But there are not many "good" prosecutors. I have defended criminal cases where in prosecutors had evidence in their possession which would exonerate the defendant and they attempted to surpress the evidence. The Prosecutor finally did dismiss the case once a State Supeame Court decison rendered the evidence admissable. (The complaining witness had accused 5 other men of the same crime and all of them were found not guilty. It is interesting to note the Judge in the above case is now in prison for the same crime over which he presided at the time.) Many prosecutors take the attitude: file em all and let the Jury sort it out. Convictability / winnability and election year politics will play the largest role in that decision making process. Ultimatly TO FILE, or Not TO FILE is an internal process in the prosecutors office.

Your best case scenario, the holy grail of self defence shoots, is a self defense shooting so clear and clean that the prosecutor decides not to file a criminal case against the shooter. Thats what you want to happen, if you have to shoot.

But keep in mind, anything the prosecutor comes across will be part of that decision making process. Anything that a prosecutor obtains via search, the discovery process, personal interviews, your witness list etc, will be "spun" in the light most favorable to whatever arguments the prosecutor wishes to make. Your, black belt graduation certificate, weapons collection, shooting school graduation certificate, and computer are all items a prosecutor can get his hands on easily. If the prosecutor decides to file the case, those items can and will be used to formulate an argument agaist you in court. Even if the argument never makes it into the prosecutors final draft it WILL be considered. And if that argument looks convincing enough to the Prosecutor he will file the case.

Lets get really scary. Consider that your neighbors will be interviewed. Not only Harry the ex navy CB, but also the crazy cat lady down the street, and the damn hippy with the Kerry-Edwards bumper sticker on his 1968 VW van. And those neighbors will tell the nice officer all about that times they see you come home, wearing "terrorist army clothes" with the scary black "AK-16."

Items I have seen bite people in the buttocks: Souvenier targets, old targets labeled with the names of old girl friends and teachers. Military surplus training manuals, toy firearms, testimony of family members and girlfriends who just didnt understand the defendants "obsession" with guns.

Remember the mindset of those around you:

If you did not want to shoot someone you would not own a gun and practise doing it shooting those people targets. Self defense guns are chrome, cheap, small, and hold 6 bullets. Only army and police people really need guns. Civilians have 911 and cell phones.

The bottom line is be careful. I own some black guns and glocks and not one chrome small 6 shooter or .25 raven. But, dont get blind sided. Be careful what your neighbors see. Be careful what you keep out in the open. Be prepared to have a reason for why you went to that shooting school. Keep your black belt, shooting school certificate and other goodies with your kids sports trophies. Look and act as normal as you can to the people araound you. Be nice to the cat lady and the hippies and avoid any trail that leads to old girl friends. Keep a bail bondsman and a criminal defense attorneys business card in your wallet and have your wife do the same. Get to know a couple of the local cops, so they can vouch for you to their buddies. Pray often and fervently that you never have to take another persons life or that if you do it will be clear to one and all that it had to be done.

FB6

PS the stupid spell check isnt working, and my secretary went home.

Anthony
07-01-2006, 04:48 AM
Keep your black belt, shooting school certificate and other goodies with your kids sports trophies. Look and act as normal as you can to the people araound you. Be nice to the cat lady and the hippies and avoid any trail that leads to old girl friends. Keep a bail bondsman and a criminal defense attorneys business card in your wallet and have your wife do the same. Get to know a couple of the local cops, so they can vouch for you to their buddies. Pray often and fervently that you never have to take another persons life or that if you do it will be clear to one and all that it had to be done.

Very good post firebird6, and one that I hope people will read.
This last paragraph is very important.
Also the ex-girlfriend part.
Seperations are often not pleasent.
I've had a similar situation as you describe. - Not in court though, but I'll explain.
After finishing with an ex who almost lived with me she spent so much time at my apartment.
When we first went out, I kept my carry revolvers out of her sight, and my home defense shotgun also. My other guns are kept locked in a safe.
As time went by, she obviously knew that I legally carried. She was interested in my guns, and even wanted to shoot them at the range. - I took her a few times, and she seemed to enjoy it. Believe it or not, but she showed interest in getting a small revolver for herself !
Then the end came. - As it often is, it wasn't pleasent. She was very bitter.
I heard later through a mutual friend that she "thought me crazy, to have so many guns !" - I only had 17 guns at that time.
Regards,
Anthony.

firebird6
07-01-2006, 09:14 AM
Save us. We are so far off topic Spock, couldnt get us there at warp 9 for 193.4 years.

The original question was about shot guns, and is the political correctness of the shot gun going to be a factor in the police investigation. The short answer should have been. In my experience, YES.

All this has got me thinking about what I might do if I shot someone, I think Ill post that else where in the forum. Things this lawyer thinks you should think about if the worst happens.

FB6

Anthony
07-01-2006, 12:00 PM
All this has got me thinking about what I might do if I shot someone, I think Ill post that else where in the forum. Things this lawyer thinks you should think about if the worst happens.

FB6
Good idea for sure.
I'll be interested.
Regards,
Anthony.

shifter2
07-01-2006, 11:57 PM
Dead guys don't sue.

Section1_Operations
07-02-2006, 01:36 AM
Dead guys don't sue.

Yeah, but surviving loved ones do gather for a good civil court battle that they don't have to pay for even if it's just a remote chance they could collecthttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_36.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824JBUS).

One has to love what has become of our tort systemhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_5.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824JBUS).

bookman
07-04-2006, 09:24 AM
After reading the posts regarding the shootings during the Newark riots I wanted to put my two cents in regarding the situation during Katrina in NOLA. To preface my viewpoint, I was on the ground in NOLA with Blackwater on Sept 10 till Mar 3.
In a complete breakdown environment like that seen in Los Angeles and NOLA, I would not hesitate to shoot persons who where attempting to loot, burn, assault, rape, pillage or whatever should I feel threatend. As to distances or type of weapon....I can attest that NO POLICE OR AUTHORITY will be present to investigate or provide enforcement to you or the perpetrators you shoot. What governmental authority may be present will have way more pressing things to do than to work individual shootings and attempt to identify who shot who and why. I saw a few bodies that showed evidence of being shot that I'm sure never will be investigated or even reported as such ( NOLA PD stated that few people were shot during the riots).
I also saw in NOLA that the authorities were so everwhelmed that in many instances they avoided all areas that posed a threat to them. The police where operating in caravans of up to 12-15 cars with 4 men per vehicle. Yet still avoided BAD areas during the night.
Rather than continually worrying over the possible legal ramifications associated with shooting an armed perp, I would be more concerned with the REAL IMMEDIATE THREAT posed by the maurading hordes and eliminate that threat.

Guantes
07-04-2006, 11:22 AM
This thread has kind of split into oranges and watermelons.

In a home defense or other SD shooting under "normal" conditions, you can expect more or less of the potential problems previously mentioned. Which direction it heads will primarily be determined by the facts of the situation and the geographic location in which it occurred. In states which have Civil Immunity from liability for justified self defense (Idaho), your problems in a good shoot will probably be nil. In other locations where self reliance is frowned on, your problems will probably be considerable greater.

In the middle of the chaos of a riot situation, befor LE has any kind of control, will be entirely different. Both LE and non-LE will operate in similar fashion. Just like dealing with weeds in your yard, when a weed is encountered, deal with it and move on until you encounter the next one. When the weeds are eventually gathered up, who knows who dealt with any particular one.