Finding the red dot on the draw

[230therapy]

Originally Posted by Karl Kasarda

This is weird to me in that once people experience "point shooting" in close range combative distances they suddenly think that the entire notion of aimed fire is now worthless.

Why would you assume I ever thought this? 7677's essay, "The Sight Continuum" sums it up quite nicely.

[clarkemyers]

What are you referring to as parallax?

The dot does not have to be centered in the window, IOW there is no (or essentially none) parallax error.

Where ever the dot is in the window is POA and POI assuming a zero at that range.

The RMR dot I'm using may well be parallax free for all practical purposes just as a low powered scope lacks parallax adjustment - though there is a considerable difference between 50 feet and 100 yards.

Makers will offer shotgun and rimfire model scopes set parallax free at closer ranges than the same maker's very similar model for centerfire rifle. I have a couple name brand scopes with decent parallax adjustment - a 4x12 on a dual purpose 6mm Remington that goes as far down as 50 feet for gallery matches and a 16X on a Hart barreled .220 Swift that not only permits but demands adjustment for best accuracy. Whether the target moves against the cross hairs with the eye or against the eye tells me which way to adjust.

With the RMR sighted pistol I can put the pistol in a vise - I have a Ransom Rest but don't see grip adapters for the M&P 40c and Ransom hasn't answered so I actually use a nice little adjustable made for holding micrometers from Harbor Freight and don't actually fire the pistol - with some confidence that the hypothetical point of impact won't change and I add a laser bore sighter for extra assurance - I use a SiteLite green beam that may not be perfect for the 3-1/2 inch barrel but good enough and the green doesn't merge with the red dot - then as an exercise center my eye behind the red dot then move my eye left and right, up and down and the point of aim - but presumably not the point of impact - moves with my eye that is eye right red dot right - curiously but logically enough the BUIS show no parallax so the BUIS point of aim and the red dot point of aim diverge as my eye moves off center.

That's my experience and I just tried it again. That's part of my certainly overblown (and it is overblown but some others strike me as over confident) concern with finding and centering the dot from awkward positions. Time was I could have confidently taken a precision shot past a no-shoot at some fair range. Today I not only can't make the shot I even have trouble with what the sight picture should be.

Should I argue with my red dot sight installer or maker for selling me an optical sight that in fact may be perfectly parallax free at only one range and merely good enough for all practical purposes?

Is this sight defective or merely typical?

[sbeckman]

curiously but logically enough the BUIS show no parallax so the BUIS point of aim and the red dot point of aim diverge as my eye moves off center.

Iron sights when properly aligned (sight alignment/sight picture) require your eye to be aligned with them and that represents the POA.
My interpretation of this is 100% parallax error, not zero parallax error because if you move your head with the pistol fixed in space that relationship no longer exists.

IOW, if you move your head the sights are no longer aligned and no longer represent where the pistol is aimed.

With the red dot if you move your head, the dot moves in the window such that it still represents where the pistol is aimed.
Yes, within the limits of the window size.

Is this sight defective or merely typical?

The BUIS may not co-witness with the red dot and when install an RMR and suppressor sights I simply try to center the rear sight.

There is nothing done to attempt or to guarantee that they co-witness with the red dot.

They are an independent and backup (hence the acronym) set of sights that may or may not be zeroed at the same distance.

[smince]

Originally Posted by clarkemyers

Is this sight defective or merely typical?

Based on two examples (yours and mine), I'll say 'typical'.

I just tried with my J-Point, and the dot moves with my eye as you say yours does. My BUIS still stays on target, so therefore, the dot is on the target also:

Originally Posted by sbeckman

The dot does not have to be centered in the window...Where ever the dot is in the window is POA and POI assuming a zero at that range.

Try this experiment: look through the lens so that the dot is in a lower or upper corner, put it on a target, and lock the gun down in your 'vise'. Then look at where the BUIS line up.

In my case, they are still on target fine (or close enough, as sbeckman notes).

[clarkemyers]

Let me emphasize that for me as the eye moves off axis the dot moves in the window against the target so that the line eye - dot - target ends at a slightly different but very close place on the target despite the line of bore - for trial represented by a green dot on the target - not moving even a little bit.

Reading this and other forums I think people are using red dot too generically.

Let me emphasize that I think the RMR on a polymer pistol is as good as it gets for practical shooting currently. There may be other similar sights and other pistols equally good in general and clearly preferred by other people.

But I think some people are speaking or writing as though all red dot sights have the same or substantially similar properties.

My point here is that FREX very long eye relief and so insensitivity to eye position on axis is not the same as insensitivity off axis or no parallax nor yet again the same as Bindon aiming with an ACOG and a red dot in an Aimpoint 9000 with 2X magnification - maybe forward mounted on a carbine or rifle - isn't the same as a T1 on the same rifle and far from an RMR or JP so conversations can become confusing.

Despite practice I still have trouble lining up the red dot from an awkward position and maybe I always will because despite an early flirtation with a Model 39 when those were highly desired and 9mm was common and a later fondness for a Model 58 (these days my splits with the .41 Remington Magnum can be clocked with the hour hand) I've used a 1911 for 40 years now.

Like a great many others as I age and as things change I'm moving to a polymer pistol with a red dot sight and I hope my issues won't discourage anyone else.

Try it, you'll like it but it does take an effort and there will be improvements yet to come.