SI 2014 Training
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  1. #21
    Here is a quote I found from Mike Janich....

    " What I found was that serrations tended to "grab" very loose clothing and move it over the target, dissipating the force of the cut and greatly reducing the ability of the edge to penetrate the clothing. Properly sharpened plain edges--especially those with superior edge profile (not too much belly) and superior edge geometry cut much cleaner and with much greater effect on the underlying target."

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=RDog;1305946]As for snagging on clothes...anything can snag. I now carry a Ka Bar folder with thumbstuds, and several times the stud has caught for an instant, I do believe the spyderco style of thumb hole to be a better design as a result.

    QUOTE]

    I think most of the snagging issues are during cuts, not so much on the hanging up on the draw etc. When testing cuts on clothes, I've seen the serrations hang on loose knit type clothing (polo shirts). I think I remember reading something from Mr. Janich talking about loose fitting, baggy clothing, allowing serrations to catch and move the clothing and not allowing for a deep cut.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by 3corners View Post
    "far more important features to a good knife than the type of blade it has."

    Such as??? a good knife for me is ALL about the blade! What else could be more important???
    Sorry, I'll try again. The topic was serrations vs. plain edge and I was speaking to the effect that the blade being serrated or plain is not what sets one knife well above the other. Quality materials, solid design (folder mech or full vs partial tang on fixed blades) balance, size, carry method, and or sheath design/materials etc. are more important to me over if the blade has or lacks serrations.

    maybe I should say a good knife is all about the blade assuming everything else is good as well.

    Here is an extreme example...In another thread Mr. Suarez posted a pic of an old Randal fighting knife...imagin that the handle was cracked and falling apart with every touch, or it had been cut down half its size...would its usability as a combat knife be diminished? Now imagine its blade is fully serrated but the handle is fine...which would still be a solid fighting knife? was it the blade alone or the overall design of the knife that makes it?

    When talking about a blade as a weapon, even though I feel that the overall design out weighs the type of blade it has. *I've heard more knife related fatalities are by kitchen knives than "fighting" knives...and judging by most kitchen knives I have come in contact with there is a good chance that half of these were dull, poorly made and lacked good ballance.

    (*not sure if its true or not but seems legit)

  4. Hey, Guys:

    Sorry for the slow response. Scrambling to get ready for the SHOT Show...

    First, thanks to Gabe and the others for your responses and for tracking down quotes from my other posts on this subject. I still stand by them. In short, serrations tend to grab clothing and move it, reducing the effectiveness of the cut. If you're familiar with MBC, you know that it focuses on cutting to cripple the body parts that allow an attacker to be dangerous to you. That's why cutting is a primary concern.

    A few additional thoughts:

    Look at the dress habits of some of the people you might have to defend against. Loose clothing in multiple layers not only provides lots of room to conceal weapons (up to and including machetes), it's a form of armor. That's why MBC's "go-to" move is the Comma Cut to the quadriceps, which begins as a thrust to the inner thigh to penetrate the pants (usually a single layer of cloth) at a right angle and then, with the blade in the flesh, turning to cut to the bone as the blade tracks around the femur.

    It's important to understand that all serrations are not created equal. Some cut great, some suck--regardless of what you're cutting. Some can be sharpened easily, some can't. Similarly, edge geometry and edge profile have a profound effect on the cutting effectiveness of plain edges. As we say in MBC, "If you try hard enough, you can fuck up anything." That includes putting a lousy edge on a perfectly good knife and drawing conclusions from its cutting performance.

    Stab wounds are more likely to kill than cuts, especially if you consider historical evidence going back to when edged weapons were primary weapons. It's important to understand, however, that part of the reason for that historical reality was that medical care for deep, penetrating torso wounds was pretty bad a few hundred years ago. Just because someone ultimately died from a stab wound doesn't make it the most effective stopping tactic.

    It's important to remember that a lot of the historical effectiveness of stab wounds was also based on results obtained with knives that we can't practically or legally carry in today's society. Since most folks on this forum are gun guys, think of it this way: I carry a 3.5-inch blade because that's what I'm legally allowed to carry in Colorado. If an ammo salesman came up to you and tried to convince you that the ultimate defensive cartridge/bullet combination is one that guarantees a maximum of 3.5 inches of penetration into flesh with absolutely no stretch cavity and no hydrostatic shock, would you buy it?

    With regard to RDog's last post, more people die from stab wounds from kitchen knives because more people ARE stabbed with kitchen knives. They're cheap, readily available, and easily disposable. They are also the most common weapons of opportunity in domestic arguments. Interestingly, they are often longer and have broader blades than the knives that most of us can practically or legally carry.

    When it comes to cutting effectively, proper technique helps a lot. It's also helpful to understand the difference between ballistic cutting (the blade is in motion before and after the cut) and pressure cutting (the blade is positioned on the target and then pressure is applied to cut). Pressure cuts are much more powerful and produce devastating, cut-to-the-bone results. They also help further mitigate the protective effects of clothing.

    Ernie Emerson is a friend of mine and I have great respect for his products and his skills. However, based on years of cutting tests on cloth covered targets with a variety of brands and patterns of serrations, do not recommend serrations for combative knives.

    I hope this helps.

    Stay safe,

    Mike

  5. #25
    I use to carry serrated knives but now they are in the drawer. Why?? Because the serrations didn't work for 90% plus of the cutting I wanted/needed to do. I am not talking about self defense I am talking about daily chores. I now carry straight edges. I have a couple with combo edges (serrations near the handle) that I do carry while working the farm but really wish they were straight edges all the way. I won't get into the deal about catching on clothes because I have never had that experience so I will bow to the ones who have. To me, a straight edge just fits my life style better and since I use a knife as a tool, I keep that tool sharp. Just my .02 cents.
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  6. #26
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    I have a Spyderco Endura with a fully serrated blade. It is gathering dust and has never been carried because I like to actually use knives that I carry for mundane tasks from time to time, like opening letters or cutting packing tape. Its not that it was unsuitable for these tasks, but if you use it eventually you have to sharpen it, and I didn't think that I could do that well. It was frighteningly sharp out of the box and still is, given that I have never cut anything other than myself with it.
    Discipline is just choosing between what you want now and what you want most.


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  7. #27
    Wanted to add; Sharpening serrated edges= best thing I found is made by Smiths. It looks kind of like a ink pen but you unscrew part and there is a diamond rod inside. One end is the same size from the half way point to the end. It has one flat side the rest is round. The other end round and tapered from the half way point to a knob on the end. Which side you use depends upon the size of the serrations on the knife. For Spyderco I use the bigger end for the large serrations and the tapered side for the smaller ones. It does not take to long to get them back in shape. When I am done, I lightly stone the backside of the serrations to knock off any burr.
    I rather you hated me for who I am than love me for who I ain't!
    This Ain't the Movies, and You Ain't John Wayne!

    Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a 12 pound sledgehammer!
    TRAIN HARD= SOONER OR LATER YOU"LL NEED IT!

  8. #28
    I checked out Emersons site and the majority looked to be straight edge as well as some combo-edge. I didn't see any knives fully serrated bladed, so I find his comment endorsing serrations to be somewhat puzzling.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKern View Post
    I have a Spyderco Endura with a fully serrated blade. It is gathering dust and has never been carried because I like to actually use knives that I carry for mundane tasks from time to time, like opening letters or cutting packing tape. Its not that it was unsuitable for these tasks, but if you use it eventually you have to sharpen it, and I didn't think that I could do that well. It was frighteningly sharp out of the box and still is, given that I have never cut anything other than myself with it.


    I doubt you will ever dull that Endura to the point that it really needs sharpening, but the Spyderco Sharpmaker is easy to use and the serrated Endura is great for the mundane tasks you mentioned.

    Don't be afraid to abuse it and sharpen it. Enjoy it.
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  10. #30
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    Perhaps a foolish question but are there any fighting folders that are double bladed? One has a plain blade and the other end a serrated blade. Several people talk of carrying two knives or more. But in an earlier blog or SI news report it was strongly advised to use just one knife for everything that you do from eating at the table to selfdefense. That makes sense. The serrated blade w/o question is the best for many utility jobs and worth learning how to resharpen. So are there any quality double bladed folders out there having one serrated blade and one plain blade? Is this approach practical in having an utility and fighting knife in one?
    The spiritual realm is in my heart....but what is in my hands is sharp edgy realism with which I can make stuff happen for my own benefit. .....
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