SI 2014 Training
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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Housertl View Post
    I would think that if you were changing phones on a regular schedule, you would get your new phone prior to the change out, and tell your group the numbers over the phone about to be ditched.
    And if they are already monitoring your phone?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Arlington, VA
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    1,362
    Good point. I only thought that would be a viable technique if you were changing them out at least once a week or so, thus minimizing the chance that they have your new phone. Alternatively you could distribute the numbers via dead drop, but that could take time to make it's way through your network.

    How about a code word that lets the other person know that the next sentence will contain a cyphered number, perhaps based off of the first letter of each word that you use in the sentence?

    ETA: I think the dead drop number distribution is the best method, especially if a strong cell structure is used in the network. One member of the network is the hub, but only contacts the "spokes" via dead drop. You give them your new number, they give it to the rest of the network. You would need to coordinate the timing so that you don't have periods of lost connectivity. It would also enable a member of the network to notify the hub that they suspect they are under direct observation. If you think you have picked up a tail, don't pick up the dead drop with the new numbers. You effectively drop out of the network until you have lost your tail, then re-initiate contact with the "super hub" via dead drop (who, preferrably, the "spoke" doesn't even know exists), who coordinates the efforts of the hubs, so that they can verify the "spoke" has lost their tail, and direct the "hub" to bring them back into the fold.
    Last edited by Housertl; 12-06-2011 at 08:09 AM.
    “No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders.”
    Samuel Adams

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenchs View Post
    Probably a stupid question but I've always wondered how you call someone if everyone in your group is using burn phones. How do you exchange the new phone numbers?
    YOu use a "Comms Cut out". This means never ask a question and receive the answer via the same channel. Example: Ask via phone, answer gets posted a day later on a web site board or email...or better yet a dea email. A dead email is one where you and I both open at our respective areas as we each have the password, but neither of us ever actually sends anything...just save it under draft. Oy...ask on one phone, answer on another phone. We often simply change out SIM chips. This way you carry the same phone and have several chips in your wallet on on your person / hotel. A day is US phone chip while in Nicaragua...and B day is Guat phone chip while in Nic. When done melt the chips. Always consider a mix of local chips and foreign chips. BTW, all of our chips are registered in the name of a friend of a friend...or a legal firm. This also helps to intentionally muddey the waters.
    If not you, then who? If not now, then when?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    202 Metro
    Posts
    25,306
    My only comment to all this, as somebody who has a significant amount of electronic surveillance experience in apprehending people, is don't mistake your basic skills set and knowledge in this subject area for being more than they are.
    “This is a war and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at anytime, and in anyplace.” - Morpheus

    "There are no silver medals on the world's mean streets." - CWS

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Randall View Post
    I admit I am a little naive about high tech specifics, but if you sent a report wouldn't it mean it went by e-mail or text message or instant message? Which wouldn't it mean some account that had been opened was used?
    Sometimes we post one page at a time via text, email, bulliton board (Of course always using vailed speech...or "Etonian double speak"). This way the entire report is never together...only the receiver knows where to collect the various parts of the item. Also, names, dates and locations are NEVER used in context. They are via comms cut out.

    When one sends info, it doesnt always have to transmit from the email, it can simply be posted as a draft on one end and on the other ...they open the draft. Can also be posted on a forum board and left there for reference as long as you require. Remember that no email will even be registered to you, your address. Prior to the op starting, all team members get a theme name of a fish, fruit, vegetable, meat, beer etc... For instance, Manzana21@yahoo.com, uvas12 @yahoo.com, bananogrande123@yahoo.com. We also pick an operational language. This will further upset the opositions apple cart when they try to decipher, look for interpretor.
    If not you, then who? If not now, then when?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Housertl View Post
    I would think that if you were changing phones on a regular schedule, you would get your new phone prior to the change out, and tell your group the numbers over the phone about to be ditched. If you have the need to change out all the phones simultaneously due to suspected compromise, I think it would make sense to have a predetermined "lay low" period, during which one member obtains all the phones for the group, programs the numbers into them with code names, and then distributes them via dead drop. If done correctly, and at random intervals, it could also be used to ferrett out tails.
    No one in the droup shuld ever buy the phones. They are picked up by a proxey...taxi drieve, gardener, maid, etc... No new numbers are ever to be given over old phone as this is risky. The person (via nick name only) along with number can be posted on a Home and Garden site for temp reference. Can also be sent via one time use email, dead letter drop, or even Hushmail. Real names and numbers never posted together. One per week we swap phones at a group meet. A predetermined opder can be established. We swap from top to bottom of list...or bottom up...or according to digit sequence. Can also be done alphabetical according to nickname. This should be spelled in verbal or written team SOP so we are all on same sheet of music.
    Last edited by Fulanito; 12-06-2011 at 08:40 AM.
    If not you, then who? If not now, then when?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,972
    There are also many ways to encrypt something so that no one can ever crack them unless they have the code. I remember a story a teacher told about using full length encryption keys, same length as all the data in the message, and some they caught from Russia during the cold war. They were getting all the transmissions but could never crack any of them... until... a Russian general REUSED and encryption key for a second message. The result was they were able to crack those two messages, but nothing else, and he mused that shortly after that message was sent and the Russians saw what happened he was killed soon after lol.
    Bazinga!

    Keep calm and Panic!!!


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Cold War Scout View Post
    My only comment to all this, as somebody who has a significant amount of electronic surveillance experience in apprehending people, is don't mistake your basic skills set and knowledge in this subject area for being more than they are.
    This is right on targert. Never rest on your laurels. Never get confident, Never talk too much in your AO, never write what can be said, never say what is not needed, always change it up, muddy the watters etc... Their are no 100%'s in this game...only the mitigation of risk. Only ways to make it so difficult and confusing that the opposition gets it wrong...or gets tired. That is, if you ever get rolled up at all. We all work with financial constraints and time constraints. Find out what that envelope is for the op and work outside of it. They may have a roatation time line where new folks come in and take over, they may only have so much finding, the may not be very attentive, they may not have the linguistic capability... Find the weakness and work around it and or exploit it. Always luck will play a part in this. This is why it is always better to be lucky than good. If you are just good, there will always be someone better...or with better equipment or more funds. With LUCK, you will be done and in another country before they even know you were there...or anything is going on. That brings me to another point. Never stay in one jurisdiction too long...also dont use the same transport either. Hop the border by plane, drive to alt. location for meet and calls, take boat for xfil to an uninvolved 3rd party nation. Spend a couple days on "vacation". Then rent a car and go back to base. Never by a full trip worth of tickets all at once. Buy along the way in cash,or with other cards or accounts. Creat a new and sterile itinerary every step of the way.

    Also letters from home (calling in to say Im alive) should not be done on a routine schedule. Should never be for instance, at a specified date and time. Should be done in windows to give the operator discretion as to when he needs to or can surface. In the case of family issues and higher want you to come in, this can be problematic. Normally bad news must wait until the op is over. Lets the boys keep their heads in the game. Once in a while you will get some hurt feelings and someone will miss a funeral, hospital stay for mama, but we deal with that later. All part of the game.
    Last edited by Fulanito; 12-06-2011 at 01:40 PM.
    If not you, then who? If not now, then when?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkface View Post
    There are also many ways to encrypt something so that no one can ever crack them unless they have the code. I remember a story a teacher told about using full length encryption keys, same length as all the data in the message, and some they caught from Russia during the cold war. They were getting all the transmissions but could never crack any of them... until... a Russian general REUSED and encryption key for a second message. The result was they were able to crack those two messages, but nothing else, and he mused that shortly after that message was sent and the Russians saw what happened he was killed soon after lol.
    And today this is even easier. One can save, zip and reduce a doc and embed it in a photo and post the photo on a site or send via email labeled "pix of my vacation". Leave in an encrypted Ironkey taped under a specific table in a designated restaurant. PGP key can be used but this sends off a crypto signal...can get caught in a net...however still useful. SAT phones can be used but costly...depends on budget or how deep you want to or need to go.
    Last edited by Fulanito; 12-06-2011 at 09:16 AM.
    If not you, then who? If not now, then when?

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    1,362
    Quote Originally Posted by Fulanito View Post
    No one in the droup shuld ever buy the phones. They are picked up by a proxey...taxi drieve, gardener, maid, etc... No new numbers are ever to be given over old phone as this is risky. The person (via nick name only) along with number can be posted on a Home and Garden site for temp reference. Can also be sent via one time use email, dead letter drop, or even Hushmail. Real names and numbers never posted together. One per week we swap phones at a group meet. A predetermined opder can be established. We swap from top to bottom of list...or bottom up...or according to digit sequence. Can also be done alphabetical according to nickname. This should be spelled in verbal or written team SOP so we are all on same sheet of music.
    Thanks for taking me to school.
    “No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders.”
    Samuel Adams

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