Twenty round US made magazine sorely needed

[RayMich]

This is a very interesting correspondence exchange between a civilian and the BATFE.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...86#post2580586

Original query:

March 18, 2009

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Firearms Technology Division
99 New York Avenue, NE
Washington, D.C. 20226


Dear Sirs,

I am writing for clarification on Title 18 § 922(r), which prohibit s any person “to assemble from imported parts” some semiautomatic rifles and shotguns under certain circumstances. The meaning of “from imported parts” is defined in 27 C.F.R. Section 478.39 as being not more than ten parts of foreign origin from a list of twenty possible parts.

However, there is no requirement that the origin of any parts, whether of foreign or domestic make, be marked on these parts in any way, with the exception of the receiver. Therefore almost all firearm parts other than the receiver are not marked with regard to national origin.

When considering the purchase of a second-hand semiautomatic rifle or shotgun, it is often impossible for the buyer, or any other party, to determine with any certainty the origin of the parts of the weapon. By extension, it is often equally impossible for the potential buyer to determine whether or not the rifle or shotgun is in compliance with § 922(r), based on the standards set forth in 27 C.F.R. Section 478.39.

My questions in regard to this difficulty are as follows:

Firstly, what is the BATFE’s definition of “assembly” as it applies to § 922(r)?

Secondly, does the BATFE consider routine maintenance such as the removal and replacement of parts for cleaning, or the removal and insertion of magazines to constitute “assembly”?

Thirdly, would a person incur criminal liability by the purchase and possession of a second-hand firearm which was determined not to be in compliance with § 922(r), even though the assembly of said firearm was performed by someone other than the buyer, and the buyer had no way to verify the legality of that assembly?

Fourthly, if a person were to be criminally charged with a violation of § 922(r), on whom would the burden of proof lie, and what standard of proof would be required to establish guilt or innocence?

Finally, what is the BATFE’s procedure for determining whether a given firearm is in compliance with § 922(r), given that the absence of a mark indicating the origin of a part is insufficient to draw any firm conclusion about the part’s origin, foreign or domestic?

Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

Sincerely yours,

XXXX XXXXXX

ATF reply:

Dear MX. XXXXX:

This is in response to your recent correspondence to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives(ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) asking several questions with respect to 18 U.S.C. 922(r) and its implementing regulation, 2TC FR 478.39. (Please note that your letter was forwarded to FTB's new location in Martinsburg, West Virginia.) Your questions are listed below in italics, each followed by our answers, which are in bullets.

1. What is ATF's definition of "assembly" as it applies to 922(r)?

The meaning of "assemble" or "assembly'' as it applies to 922(r) shall be the same as the word is generally known and used.

2. Does ATF consider routine maintenance, such as the removal and replacement of parts for cleaning, or the removal and insertion of magazines to constitute "assembly"?

The removal and re-installing of parts for cleaning and routine maintenance would not constitute assembly for the purpose of § 922(r), as long as none of the original parts are substituted with replacement or additional parts.

3. Would a person incur criminal liability by the purchase and possession of a second-hand firearm which was determined not to be in compliance with 922(r), even though the assembly of said firearm was performed by someone other than the buyer, and the buyer had no way to verify the legality of that assembly?

18 U.S.C. 5 922(r) applies to the act of assembly per SE, not mere possession of the assembled firearm.

4. If a person were to be criminally charged with a violation of § 922(r), on whom would the burden of proof lie, and what standard of proof would be required to establish guilt or innocence?

All persons are considered innocent until proven guilty; thereforet, the "burden of proof" in any criminal case lies with the Government. The burden of proof to establish "guilt" has long been codified by legal precedent in U.S. Courts. We recommend you seek the guidance of legal counsel for a detailed explanation of this standard.

5. What is ATF's procedure for determining whether a given firearm is in compliance with 922(r), given that the absence of a mark indicating the origin of a part is insufficient to draw any firm conclusion about the part's origin, foreign or domestic?

Every method possible is utilized in identifying the origin of manufacture of a firearm part during an investigation involving a suspected violation of 922(r). Each such review must be taken on a case-by-case basis and may necessitate evaluation of such things as: design characteristics, markings (or lack thereof), and associate documents and/or statements.

We thank you for your inquiry and turst you find our answers responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

Note the answers to questions #1, #2 and #5.

1. What is ATF's definition of "assembly" as it applies to 922(r)?

The meaning of "assemble" or "assembly''as it applies to 922(r) shall be the same as the word is generally known and used.

So, removing a part and installing the same part or another part IS "assembly".

2. Does ATF consider routine maintenance, such as the removal and replacement of parts for cleaning, or the removal and insertion of magazines to constitute "assembly"?

The removal and re-installing of parts for cleaning and routine maintenance would not constitute assembly for the purpose of § 922(r), as long as none of the original parts are substituted with replacement or additional parts.

I would interpret this to mean that one CANNOT remove a "compliant" magazine and replace it with a "non-compliant" magazine, if it makes the gun non-compliant with Title 18 § 922(r).

5. What is ATF's procedure for determining whether a given firearm is in compliance with 922(r), given that the absence of a mark indicating the origin of a part is insufficient to draw any firm conclusion about the part's origin, foreign or domestic?

Every method possible is utilized in identifying the origin of manufacture of a firearm part during an investigation involving a suspected violation of 922(r). Each such review must be taken on a case-by-case basis and may necessitate evaluation of such things as: design characteristics, markings (or lack thereof), and associate documents and/or statements.

I interpret this to mean that if they REALLY want to jam you up, they will use all the resources of the Federal Government to prove their case and convict you (metallurgy, plastics composition, identical design as a known foreign part, etc.). - They have done it before and will do it again if it is politically in their favor to do so.

I choose not to intentionally piss-off the ATF if it is at all possible.

[Netpackrat]

I know that US floorplates for steel 7.62x39 AK mags exist, because one or two were thrown in with an AMD parts kit that I bought once. So, I spent a little time with Google, and DSA (the FAL people) appears to have them. Be careful because the ones Kvar sells look to only be good for the Bulgy polymer mags, and those are all over the place. Even found a site with patterns and instructions on how to build your own.

And yeah, inserting a magazine is an assembly operation. Since the mag parts are on the list of countable parts, that is implicit in the definition of assembly for purposes of 922r.

[bonehedz]

In an attempt to re-hijack this thread and return it to OP:

For those of us who favor a compact underfolder or sidefolder, a compact twenty round, U.S. made magazine would sure be nice. Not an AK30-20, but an AK20. I'd buy ten in a heartbeat.

+1 on that...I carry 20 rd. Hungy's in my "around-town" bag, and while they work fine, they are HEAVY!!!

[akmcollector89]

i would like 20's and 5's to make my wasr legal to hunt with

[Allen]

Any one tried dropping an AK 30 "rebuild" kit into a 20 round tanker mag? It would give you one more US Made part (follower) for 922R compliance.
Allen

[bonehedz]

For those of us who favor a compact underfolder or sidefolder, a compact twenty round, U.S. made magazine would sure be nice. Not an AK30-20, but an AK20. I'd buy ten in a heartbeat.

I'd be in for a dozen, three full sets for my AK sbr...and they'd probably lighten the load by a couple of pounds (or more!!!)

[akmcollector89]

still sorely needed

[Kahuna-AK]

Still not happening. Unfortunately, since SHOT there has been a flat line of information on the projects that U.S. PALM bragged about working on. Rumor was that the new 45- and 30-rounders were supposed to happen May/June. No show. And what of the "PALM-47 Take-Down"? No show, as well.

They are uninterested in 5.45mm and if 20-rounders aren't in the works right now, your emails will be ignored, as mine were on the 5.45mm mags.

Don't know what's up...