Twenty round US made magazine sorely needed

[BigEd63]

The way this admin is going do y'all really want to take the chance of getting jammed up for doing anything the ATF might find against you?
No thanks, I'll keep my AK's 922r compliant, even though I didn't "build them".

eta: Yes I'd be in a few 20 rounders myself.

I agree with the above re 922r. For the time being I'll be honest and say I'm more interested in 30rd mags right now, as I've got 27 Hungarian 20rd ones. But, in the future I agree on wanting some 20rd US Palms, just not a demand for me right now.

[WhiteWillie]

I grateful for all the 922(r) input because it's confusing to me. I tried to PM Gunplumber to ask for his input but he does not accept PMs.

I also tried to contact U.S. Palm about my (our) interest in an AK20, however, their contact feature on the website does not work. So, I sent an email to the Scottsdale Gun Club, that seems to have a relationship with U.S. Palm. Maybe, if those interested in these magazines contacted SGC, we could have some success.

[WalkerAK74M]

I guess the point is you can add twenty rounders to your weapon all day long Willie....

[R4 fan]

When I was into the FAL kits, you had to replace parts with US made versions to be compliant. Some of those parts weren't cheap, especially if you wanted an actual clone of the original part and not an incorrect-looking US made version.

I was the one that asked DSA to produce (and they did) their US made cocking handle in steel (so it would be like the original and could be parkerized) rather than aluminum which is all they originally offered. If I could have legally swapped the original parts back right after I got the rifle from the gunsmith, manufacturers wouldn't be making expensive clone parts. They would have made cheap throw-away versions just for "assembly" compliance. All the main parts people were taking off their rifles and replacing, were widely available as everyone was selling them, but weren't worth much. If you have an almost new STG-58 kit with original bluing, you'd want it original and not bastardized with inferior US parts as some were at the time.

Though you may never get a visit from the ATF, it would be stupid to take the risk. On the FAL rifles, the selector moves in three positions from safe to fire to automatic. Unless you got a semi-selector that wouldn't rotate to the third position, the original selector would still rotate to auto (and I think fire only a single shot?) even though the rifle was built on a new semi-auto receiver.

Take a look at this link. There was a guy on the FAL Files forum that had a problem with his rifle and the ATF. He bought a semi-auto FAL from a police officer, that was 922r compliant. He sold/traded the rifle to someone else, and brought it to his dealer to transfer out of state. The dealer notices the selector moves to the auto position, and is not familiar with FALs. Since he can't determine if the rifle is capable of automatic firing, he calls the ATF to ask. They send an agent who says it's a machinegun and confiscates the rifle for testing. The ATF has the rifle a total of 39 days, and is eventually returned. The guy loses the sale, and besides the headaches I believe he paid for an attorney.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...r&pagenumber=1

So all it takes is someone that doesn't know to make a call. I know that the rifle in question was flagged because of suspicion of being an automatic rifle and not US made parts/922r compliance. I do know as a police officer that you are "guilty until proven innocent." I know a lot of cops that don't know the firearms laws or are liberal anti-gun, and the only contact they have with firearms is annual qualification which some hate. So you get a cop that isn't a gun guy, and your rifle gets confiscated, you end up paying for an attorney, taking off work, going through the hassle for nothing. If you pay for an attorney, the fees can outweigh the cost of the rifle itself. So even if you win your case, you could lose it financially. All that drama to switch out a part on a vague law that was written for lawyers to interpret... not worth the hassle. Even if you were going to do it, I wouldn't state so on a public form and be a guinea pig for what might happen.

[DutchV]

I'd buy some US Palm 20 rounders if they made them.

Their "AK30" mag with 10 round capacity has no appeal to me, but a properly shortened one would.

[WhiteWillie]

Mike Friend of Firing Line just finished building a Bulgarian underfolder for me and I just got off the phone with him. We talked about 922(r) and I thought I'd pass on what he told me.

For milled receiver guns, five U.S. parts are needed.

For stamped receiver guns, six U.S. parts are needed. The different requirements between milled and stampd involved the trunion (whatever a trunion is).

We talked about who's responsible for maintaining 922(r) compliance. The sad answer is, Everybody! The importers/builders need to ship compliant guns to us and, we, as owners, need to be sure the guns remain compliant by using the required number of U.S. made parts on our guns.

I guess anyone can role the dice and hope their non-compliance won't be discovered but, as others have said, I doubt that's a smart move.

[BigEd63]

We talked about 922(r) and I thought I'd pass on what he told me.

For milled receiver guns, five U.S. parts are needed.

For stamped receiver guns, six U.S. parts are needed. The different requirements between milled and stampd involved the trunion (whatever a trunion is).

DuhOh! So I got one more than I need on both my milled MAK-90 and 91!

Well better too much than too little.

They are good people at the Firing Line, I used to buy some smaller items from them and chat a bit with'em back when I lived in SW MO for a little bit.

[Patrick Henry]

Sorry to derail the 922r discussion, but in response to the OP, I agree - tough, reliable US made 20 round mags (in a true 20 round length) are definitely needed, in both 7.62 AND 5.45 x 39. I'm this close to cutting down a couple of Bulgarian 30 rounders for my 74. While I'd never completely replace all my 30's with 20's, the fact is 20's are more useful, concealable, maneuverable, and practical for 99.9% of my needs.

So, for anyone who's listening, I'd buy a buttload of them.

[R4 fan]

Sorry to derail the 922r discussion, but in response to the OP, I agree - tough, reliable US made 20 round mags (in a true 20 round length) are definitely needed, in both 7.62 AND 5.45 x 39. I'm this close to cutting down a couple of Bulgarian 30 rounders for my 74. While I'd never completely replace all my 30's with 20's, the fact is 20's are more useful, concealable, maneuverable, and practical for 99.9% of my needs.

So, for anyone who's listening, I'd buy a buttload of them.

I agree. I'd like to see removable floor plates though, so they can be blocked for ban states. Some states the limit is 15 rounds, not 10. Rather than buy a 10rd magazine, I'd get a 30rd mag blocked to 15 instead. If I could do the same with a 20rd mag, even better.

[RayMich]

I'm not an expert, but I believe that you need so many US parts to comply with 922r. It doesn't matter if you built the rifle or not. The whole reason to swap out the parts for the US made parts is so you can legally have the rifle in the original configuration.

If you change out the US made furniture for Russian furniture, you have to either add US parts somewhere else, or your rifle is non-compliant. I have an Israeli FN-FAL I had built, and didn't want to replace some of the original parts with crappy US made versions. I ended up buying US made magazine followers and floorplates for 2 of the US parts.

I bought a Krebs AK-103K, and I believe the compliant parts are US made hammer, trigger, pistol grip, handguard, buttstock and muzzle brake. If I change the furniture out to original Russian furniture (3 parts) I can only use US made magazines (3 parts, mag body, follower and floor plate) to be compliant.

http://www.tapco.com/section922r/

This is in line with what I thought.

This has always been my understanding as well.

Yes, you are. The first clue is the "any person" language. If the ATF is talking about builders or other licensed folk, they would have said so. The second clue is "assemble", not "manufacture".

Don't make the mistake of trying to force English onto ATF definitions. And with respect to our FFLs on the board, they're not the ones that are going to be hooking you. If they're not providing a written opinion from the enforcement agency, I wouldn't simply take their interpretation.

I agree with Sam Spade. Trying to argue English semantics over ATF definitions could very easily earn you 10 years room and board courtesy of Uncle Sam, to say nothing about the $250,000 fine. - I simply will not take that risk.

Additionally, the ATF has been know to approve a particular design, only to rescind their approval later, thus making all who purchased the particular design, new criminals, unless they get rid of such weapons.

NO THANKS!