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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Ostenaco's back yard
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    4,941
    And as always.....THINGS ARE COMPLEX.

    Just like with the reference to Applegate and bleed out rates, people want nice tidy bumper sticker sized answers. Violence does not work that way.

    SOME people are going to be stopped when they see the first drop of their own blood.

    SOME people are going to have to be disassembled to stop them. We just never know.

    If they stop with a cut to the arm then that is great. If they drop with a slash to the quad that is great. Just like with a pistol. If they drop with 1 shot fine...but I do not EXPECT them to. I EXPECT to have to shoot them (or cut them or stab them) multiple times for them to get the message.

    If they do not, then we must be mentally prepared to keep fighting and hit whatever target presents itself ...including vital organs.

    Once the knife comes out we are using lethal force...even if we just cut them a little. We do not want to get bogged down in trying to ONLY cut them a little to "defend " ourself. If the arm slash and quad slash do not drop them then we need to look to other targets without standing there wondering why it didn't work. The arm and quad are the first targets not the ONLY targets.

    Some folks are just tough motorscooters....be prepared to have to cut them more than once or twice.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 11-23-2010 at 10:11 AM.
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
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    TRAIN with me....http://www.suarezinternationalstore....px?find=harris

    Fundamentalist Christian Man at Arms

    AKA - CRUEL HAND LUKE

    Joel 3:10

    Through HIS power I can walk on water..IF I just have the faith and courage to get out of the boat.

    A good man who's done a couple of bad things along the way....

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Afghanistan
    Posts
    12,530
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    ...SOME people are going to have to be disassembled to stop them. We just never know....
    Exactly. Just like this guy here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXY9TuuwyL8

    S.
    "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." Voltaire

    "A mile-long rationalization of one's good intentions will not obscure or excuse an inch of violation." Tom Sotis

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Prescott, AZ
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    7,105
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    Just like with the reference to Applegate and bleed out rates, people want nice tidy bumper sticker sized answers. Violence does not work that way.
    "If violence isn't working for you, you're obviously not using enough of it."

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    730
    Here's a healed Atlanta post-mugging attempt.

    When this one happened I had the guy's arm almost trapped but when he pulled back the cut happened. I could not very well straighten my arm enough to release the trap quick after that (hence the other little cuts and scratches), push him back or reach for my own strong side knife for that matter, it pretty much made my right arm stay bent and mostly useless because of the deep triceps cut! It wasn't cut all the way but I do remember that instantly I could not use it like I wanted to.

    IMG_0333 (2).jpg

    If I had received this as an attacker/criminal, I assure you that I would have quit my foolishness ASAP and questioned my choice in targets! As the recipient it did not prevent me from continuing!

    BTW This was an excellent bleeder and an impromptu TQ was used. Lesson learned- Have First-Aid supplies handy in your vehicle!
    Last edited by noflyers; 11-23-2010 at 10:55 AM.

    “If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace” - Thomas Paine

    "Audentes fortuna iuvat!" - Anon



  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by noflyers View Post
    Here's a healed Atlanta post-mugging attempt. IMG_0333 (2).jpg

    If I had received this as an attacker/criminal, I assure you that I would have quit my foolishness ASAP and questioned my choice in targets! As the recipient it did not prevent me from continuing!

    BTW This was an excellent bleeder and an impromptu TQ was used. Lesson learned- Have First-Aid supplies handy in your vehicle!
    I'm curious how this incident ended, other than needing medical attention. Did you defeat the mugger, or were you forced to give up your goods?
    And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

    Steven Spaugh
    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
    Range Safety Officer
    Utah/Florida CCW Instructor

    Stay Safe, Inc.
    Steven@ShootingStraight.net
    www.ShootingStraight.net

  6. #16
    Al Lipscomb Guest
    There are some who think that the bio-mechanical cutting can become the sole technique for defensive knife work. That tends to cause arguments and the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. The concept of bio-mechanical cutting is to expand the number of target areas and understand how they can work to your advantage. Shooting the trigger finger of your opponent in a gunfight may not be a fatal hit, but it could sure give you an advantage if he can no longer work the gun.

    If I had a big guy trying to do a prison yard drill on me I would not be trying to cut the inside of his forearm to make him stop. But if I was all tied up with someone and I could get my blade onto his arm I might go for that cut and hope it shut him down a bit rather than trying to fight for a position with the blade that I may not be able to get.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    MAine
    Posts
    212
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Lipscomb View Post
    There are some who think that the bio-mechanical cutting can become the sole technique for defensive knife work. That tends to cause arguments and the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. The concept of bio-mechanical cutting is to expand the number of target areas and understand how they can work to your advantage. Shooting the trigger finger of your opponent in a gunfight may not be a fatal hit, but it could sure give you an advantage if he can no longer work the gun.

    If I had a big guy trying to do a prison yard drill on me I would not be trying to cut the inside of his forearm to make him stop. But if I was all tied up with someone and I could get my blade onto his arm I might go for that cut and hope it shut him down a bit rather than trying to fight for a position with the blade that I may not be able to get.
    My thoughts exactly. We quite often use a gunting (crossada) In PTK, and follow up with neck comma cuts.

    Thanks all (especially Mr.Janich, that explanation and article was great) as I really wanted to figure this all out. This thread hands down has great MBC info

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    730
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Spaugh View Post
    I'm curious how this incident ended, other than needing medical attention. Did you defeat the mugger, or were you forced to give up your goods?
    I walked rather quickly away and he didn't! Somebody had found a cop quite close around the corner and they picked him up quite literally from the sidewalk while I waited for the ambulance. I recovered fine!

    I realized later how nasty that could have been! Muscles cut- yes and a lot of other stuff but I think a key difference was that I was the victim and not the perpetrator, I did not have a choice to quit at that moment and run because we were just too close I think that most criminals, if they had received that wound, would quit because the odds are now seriously against them. When this started by the way I thought he was reaching to get my wallet and did not see the knife when I initially trapped his arm, so it is sort of my mistake that I got sliced by my choice of action.

    EDIT: Left the important part out above. The guy got tripped when I kicked his legs trying to get out of there and when he fell he hit his head pretty bad, that is why he had to literally be picked up! There were no super cool ninja moves involved!
    Last edited by noflyers; 11-28-2010 at 08:48 PM.

    “If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace” - Thomas Paine

    "Audentes fortuna iuvat!" - Anon



  9. Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    And as always.....THINGS ARE COMPLEX.

    Just like with the reference to Applegate and bleed out rates, people want nice tidy bumper sticker sized answers. Violence does not work that way.

    SOME people are going to be stopped when they see the first drop of their own blood.

    SOME people are going to have to be disassembled to stop them. We just never know.

    If they stop with a cut to the arm then that is great. If they drop with a slash to the quad that is great. Just like with a pistol. If they drop with 1 shot fine...but I do not EXPECT them to. I EXPECT to have to shoot them (or cut them or stab them) multiple times for them to get the message.

    If they do not, then we must be mentally prepared to keep fighting and hit whatever target presents itself ...including vital organs.

    Once the knife comes out we are using lethal force...even if we just cut them a little. We do not want to get bogged down in trying to ONLY cut them a little to "defend " ourself. If the arm slash and quad slash do not drop them then we need to look to other targets without standing there wondering why it didn't work. The arm and quad are the first targets not the ONLY targets.

    Some folks are just tough motorscooters....be prepared to have to cut them more than once or twice.
    Anyone who has actually taken the time to train in MBC knows that there are backups built into the system. We can and do follow up until the job is done.

    The key thing to understand is that knives stop differently than guns. Bullets are most effective when targeting center mass and the CNS. Short knives don't work the same way, especially on large attackers where reaching the vitals with a short blade is difficult.

    Like any other weapon, you need to understand its attributes and performance characteristics to apply it effectively. Activity is not always progress.

    Stay safe,

    Mike

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Ostenaco's back yard
    Posts
    4,941
    Roger that Mike,

    My post was actually directed at the reading audience at large and the OP to drive on and keep fighting if it does not work immediately, not any kind of disparagement of MBC.

    The original question was "does it work?" regarding biomechanical cutting.

    The answer is OBVIOUSLY yes...it does work, but like anything there are things we cannot control (the other guy's will to fight on) and anything no matter how well it works CAN fail.... NOTHING is always a 100% solution so IF it doesn't IMMEDIATELY work, do not just stand there wondering why.

    My reference to "bumper sticker" answers is a commentary on the mindset that permeates the self defense world that if we can just have THE right gun, or THE right knife or THE right technique we will become invincible. Of course that is ridiculous but the marketing in gun and knife magazines perpetuates that line of thinking. People want to invest as little time as possible and expect some simple solution to make them on par with the guy who has trained for years. And then they take that "one true thing" they have found and go forth expecting it to work 100% of the time on 100% of people......and we know it just does not work that way.

    Problem is when that gun, or knife or technique that people are relying on does not work immediately like they expected there is a likelihood of the user to stand and gawk in disbelief (HUGE OODA reset) instead of IMMEDIATELY transitioning to something else and getting on with the fight.

    What I said was in no way any kind of indictment of MBC, it was a matter of fact answer to the OP. If it does not work, shift gears go to option B and fight on. Just like we would tell anyone who experiences a "failure" with ANY weapon or technique. And any time we are discussing imposing our will on another through the use of violence they also have at least some say in the matter and there is always a chance , (short of nuclear obliteration maybe), that what we hit them with MAY fail..... no matter what it is or who invented it.

    Some people are just bad dudes. And that is hard to know in advance. So IF the arm cut and the thigh cut do not work, (regarding the OP) then do not stand there wondering why...fix it...transition to plan B (whatever your personal plan B is ) and finish it.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 11-27-2010 at 10:09 AM.
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
    NRA Certified Instructor
    Tennessee State Handgun Carry Permit Instructor
    Glock Factory Certified Armorer
    Master Class IDPA Stock Service Pistol

    TRAIN with me....http://www.suarezinternationalstore....px?find=harris

    Fundamentalist Christian Man at Arms

    AKA - CRUEL HAND LUKE

    Joel 3:10

    Through HIS power I can walk on water..IF I just have the faith and courage to get out of the boat.

    A good man who's done a couple of bad things along the way....

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