Proof that this Works?

[Ian49]

Let me start by saying I am not trying be be belligerent in any way, this is an honest question.

When I look into MBC (I also have two DVD's) I commonly hear that this system is based off medical research, and has been proven multiple times. I'm a little skeptical of cutting someone with a knife and disabling muscles, and I was wondering, are there any records of the research/experiments that are available to the public (or sent to me, of course (: ) and if there are any situations where the cutting of the inside of forearm, bicep/tricep or quadricep are proven (I know the Sciatic nerve cut works, an immigrant from Africa in our area had that done to prevent being a boy soldier).


Thanks all

[Al Lipscomb]

I don't know where to begin. There is plenty of evidence that shows such cuts do the damage. I know some advocate that as the focus of their system, I prefer to think of it as a target of opportunity. If I could not get a solid stab or cut into a core area I would attack any limb that was available as a target.

[Dr John Meade]

When I look into MBC (I also have two DVD's) I commonly hear that this system is based off medical research, and has been proven multiple times. I'm a little skeptical of cutting someone with a knife and disabling muscles, and I was wondering, are there any records of the research/experiments that are available to the public (or sent to me, of course (: ) and if there are any situations where the cutting of the inside of forearm, bicep/tricep or quadricep are proven

It is entirely reasonable to question the legitimacy of any claims that a system works, and ask for proof. However, like Al, I am not quite sure how to answer this.

It seems obvious that a damaged/severed muscle or tendon will no longer function properly. I see cuts all the time, and the person tends not to want to use that extremity because of it. This is for several reasons. Fear, worry of starting more bleeding, pain, muscle spasm, and actual mechanical loss of function. In a self-defense situation, you would be foolish to depend on the first 3 to stop your attacker. You better go for actual damage that disrupts the physical ability of the attacker to use the limb. MBC, properly done, will accomplish that.

I will throw in one more caveat. Tendons are harder to cut than some suppose. Good technique and a very sharp blade are required.

[Ian49]

I understand that a severed muscle no longer functions. I understand the theory of what targets MBC mainly uses.

I was wondering if there is proof, as in shown research or case studies, that show those specific targets work, as I have seen many things in theory that should work, but don't.

[Kolt]

Want proof, go to the ER in a major city and ask.

I used to live in Los Angeles. I don't anymore. My wife worked in an ER as a RN when we lived in LA.

Yes, knives work. Even if the users don't get the techniques exactly right according to MBC, they still work.

If you're asking for a database like the FBI keeps for shootings, I don't think one exists for 'knifings'.

Take care,
Kolt

[HamburgO]

I don't know of any formal case studies, as in "Traumatic and post-traumatic effect of deep lacerations to muscle tissue of the extremities..." but I think we can safely assume that inflicting a deep cut to say the quadriceps or biceps brachialis, besides causing pain, possibly massive blood loss, as well as both physical and psychological shock, will also result in partial or complete incapacitation of that muscle. As an example from experience: I suffered an accident 30 yrs. ago in which a large mirror broke and part of it came down on my leg, cleanly severing the quadriceps tendon just above the kneecap. It was rather painful, and made my leg useless until the tendon had been surgically repaired and healed. Took quite a few weeks...

I do believe that the cuts used in MBC will incapacitate musculature, and immediately make someone's life pretty darn miserable for a while. Unless the brachial, femoral or carotid artery are severed, they will probably not be fatal.

For more scientific info, google "knife wound pictures" or "edged weapon trauma"... Caution: Some very graphic stuff there !

[jwessell11]

+1 on the asking question part. I have learned that when in doubt it is better to question than to try and come up with some esoteric explanation, however i digress. There is documented research on the effectiveness of the MBC system. Mike Janich in collaboration with Christopher Grosz did extensive research into knife wounds, targeting and, the now defunct, W.E. Fairbairn's timetable of death. The book is "Contemporary Knife Targeting". Thde book discusses basically everything that you have questions about. The bonus to purchasing this book is that all proceeds go to Chris's family for he passed away suddenly before the book was completed.

[Ian49]

I don't know of any formal case studies, as in "Traumatic and post-traumatic effect of deep lacerations to muscle tissue of the extremities..." but I think we can safely assume that inflicting a deep cut to say the quadriceps or biceps brachialis, besides causing pain, possibly massive blood loss, as well as both physical and psychological shock, will also result in partial or complete incapacitation of that muscle. As an example from experience: I suffered an accident 30 yrs. ago in which a large mirror broke and part of it came down on my leg, cleanly severing the quadriceps tendon just above the kneecap. It was rather painful, and made my leg useless until the tendon had been surgically repaired and healed. Took quite a few weeks...

I do believe that the cuts used in MBC will incapacitate musculature, and immediately make someone's life pretty darn miserable for a while. Unless the brachial, femoral or carotid artery are severed, they will probably not be fatal.

For more scientific info, google "knife wound pictures" or "edged weapon trauma"... Caution: Some very graphic stuff there !

Yeah, I have been looking into the MBC targets pretty hard for a while now, trying to find out whether or not they are applicable, and the more I look, the more I like what I see.

+1 on the asking question part. I have learned that when in doubt it is better to question than to try and come up with some esoteric explanation, however i digress. There is documented research on the effectiveness of the MBC system. Mike Janich in collaboration with Christopher Grosz did extensive research into knife wounds, targeting and, the now defunct, W.E. Fairbairn's timetable of death. The book is "Contemporary Knife Targeting". Thde book discusses basically everything that you have questions about. The bonus to purchasing this book is that all proceeds go to Chris's family for he passed away suddenly before the book was completed.

I think that's my new christmas present

[Michael Janich]

Thanks to everyone for your interest in this thread.

The basis for the MBC targeting system--and a turning point in my knife training--was a case in Chicago about 15 years ago in which an employer attacked his employee with a SOG Government model fixed blade (about the size of a Ka-Bar). The employee deflected the initial stab, boss fell down, and dropped the knife. Boss then threw employee down, mounted him, and began choking him with both hands. Employee grabbed knife and began stabbing. The choking/stabbing continued (according to neighbors in the adjacent apartments who heard the commotion) for 4-5 minutes. The blood trails showed that the fight moved through almost every room in the apartment. Ultimately, about 50 stab wounds later, the boss dropped from cumulative blood loss. The coroner's report determined that all stab wounds occurred while the boss was alive (all had active bleeding and were not posthumous) and that a number of them, by themselves, were potentially mortal wounds. Despite that, it still took several minutes of effort with a 6-inch blade. I was an expert consultant on that case, so I had full access to all the records.

Up until that time, I also thought that stabbing to the torso and cutting the neck were guaranteed stops and bought into Fairbairn's timetable. When I actually started doing research on medical studies into knife trauma and talking to paramedics, trauma surgeons, and former "stabees," I realized that the realities of both lethality and, more importantly, stopping power with knives were VERY different. As documented in "Contemporary Knife Targeting," I asked the late Col. Rex Applegate (who worked closely with Fairbairn in WWII) why Fairbairn would put out inaccurate, unsubstantiated information on bleed-out rates. Col. Applegate's answer was that the timetable was designed to instill confidence in draftees. If they believed that sticking a knife in a German's neck would solve their problems (at least with THAT German) in five seconds, they'd have the confidence and motivation to DO it.

The MBC system of targeting is a combination of centuries-old, proven targeting methods, a solid understanding of basic human anatomy, Filipino martial arts angle patterns, and both an understanding and acceptance of what you can actually cut with the type of knife you'll actually carry. Reading that sentence, I'm sure the initial skeptical response will be to question the statement "centuries-old, proven targeting methods," so let me address that.

The Filipino concept of "defanging the snake" by cutting the flexor tendons of the weapon-wielding arm has been around for centuries and is not unique to the FMA (Western fencing methods and Japanese methods use it as well). My interviews of physical therapists and people who have suffered industrial and other accidents that severed flexor tendons confirms that very simple concept. Cut the tendons or the muscle that powers them deeply enough and the hand stops working.

The quadriceps cut--our ultimate stop--was a staple of Medieval sword-and-shield combat, as well as other European combat methods. One common tactic was to clash shields, use your shield to lift your opponent's, and then cut under the shields to sever his quads. Analysis of the human remains found near major European battles showed consistent evidence of deep cuts to the quads on the femurs.

While doing a demonstration of MBC at the now-defunct Valhalla training center a few years ago, the founder of the center, Tom Foreman, raised his hand and commented, "That works." When I asked him why he knew, he raised his pant leg and showed the group the scar he received while he was working an EP detail. The attacker came out of the crowd and cut Tom's quad one time, dropping him like a rock. Tom, who was a veteran K-1 full-contact fighter and former professional wrestler, tried to get up, but could not.

I have been teaching MBC publicly since 1997. Although the targeting system has been refined during the past 13 years, the basic concept of stopping power has remained the same. In my courses, I have had paramedics, nurses, trauma surgeons, physical therapists, vascular surgeons, neurosurgeons, and countless other medical professionals. In every case, I have invited and encouraged them to correct me if any of the medical information I presented was off-base. Invariably, they have confirmed that the MBC targeting approach is sound. I have also taught MBC at the International School of Tactical Medicine and the book "Contemporary Knife Targeting" has been reviewed and endorsed by one of the senior doctors of that school, Dr. Keith Rose. Dr. Rose has an extensive martial arts background that includes traditional Japanese sword arts, has field experience in Afghanistan, and has been a trauma doc for a long time.

Since the medical community tends to be far more scientifically oriented than the martial arts and tactical communities, it helps to consider things like this study of physical activity following serious stabbing/knife injuries:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w28nj6xk48b89p31/

Ultimately, do what you trust to stop your attacker quickly and reliably. That's what will keep you safe. That's also the difference between real stopping power and tactics that may ultimately prove lethal, but do not produce immediate stopping effect.

I hope this helps.

Stay safe,

Mike

[amok_hodges]

Doesn't look like this hand would be much use to me