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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    27
    Respectfully disagreeing, but that has to be the most absurdly inaccurate statement in regard to what's ideal for US LE.
    Correct statement...given the current litigation prone climate in the US at the current moment...


    Y-

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    55
    First off, my AK shoots 3 MOA all day long. 8 MOA is awful. I'll split the difference with you call it 5 MOA. 5 inch group at 100 yards.
    Now that means roughly 2.5 inches at 50 yards. The overwhelming majority of LE long gun shootings take place within fifty yards, most within coversational distance. I am not talking sniping here, I am talking about about basic urban fighting. At the ranges that most shootings happen, a weapon that shoots 2.5 inches at 50 yards is plenty accurate.

    Now throw better reliability, enhanced lethality.... .

    Different strokes for different folks. I can tell you that in California and Washington state, I have had many officers show up with there M4's decorated like XMAS trees with all sorts of gadgets. The first role over prone drill we do, the AR's kick up a cloud of fine grit and quit working. AK's will run.

    I don't expect to see cops in this country adopt commie rifles, but don't compare a 280 dollar beater AK with a Krebs rifle, Galil, Valmet, or other fine variant. They would make fine LE carbines for general use.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    416
    Regardless of the inherent capability of the weapon platform, the operator can, rarely, shoot up to the capability of his gun.

    In a class earlier this year, I watched one 'high speed' fellow go from shooting 1/4-inch groups [prone @ 25M] to dropping rounds off the target when the shooting & moving started, while the guy next to him maintained 6-inch groups throughout the course.

    The 1/4-inch guy was shooting a fancy Les Baer AR and the 6-inch guy was running a box-stock SAR-1.

    "Perfection is the enemy of good enough.";)

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    27
    Amen...

    I hear ya :)

    Y-

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    416
    To answer some of the questions that I've been receiving regarding the 'Urban AK' curriculum and the 'Combative Kalashnikov' book project, here goes:

    Urban AK class outline

    Firearms Safety & Weapon System Orientation
    Sling Carry/Dismount
    Load/Unload/Reload
    Conditions of Readiness
    Transition to Pistol
    Stoppage Reductions
    Ready Positions
    Integrated Act of Firing
    Firing Positions
    Movement
    Weapon Retention
    Wyatt Protocol drills

    Combative Kalashnikov book overview

    The focus is on using the AK family of weapons in the "urban/social/defensive/insert highspeed buzzword here" environment. That translates to definitive gunhandling for the system and understanding the role of the long gun in the pistol/short range [25M & in] fight, as opposed to traditional gravelbelly 300M work.

    The basic rundown is:

    I.Understanding the role of the carbine in self defense
    II.Firearm Safety
    III.Design Orientation
    IV.Manipulating the Safety
    V.Loading, Unloading & Status Check
    VI. Integrated Act of Firing
    VII.Ready Positions
    VIII.Deployment from Sling Carry
    IX.Reloading the Rifle
    X.Transitions & Malfunctions
    XI.Primary Shooting Positions
    XII.Zeroing the AK
    XIII.Accessorizing the AK family
    XIV.The 360 Degree Problem
    Techniques that seem functional on a traditional square range are glaringly inadequate to the task of dealing with a target-sparse, dynamic environment.
    XV.The Five-Foot Fight
    Fights in the real world tend to occur in very close confines. This is true regardless of what weapons you have brought to the fight, so it is in your best interest to have the skills necessary to address nonfiring applications of the longarm in spontaneously occurring situations.

    Nothing fancy and not a monsterous tomb covering all the permutations and variations of techniques. There are plenty of those available including Jim Crews "Urban Carbine", Gabe Suarez's "The Tactical Carbine", Chuck Taylors "The Fighting Rifle" &, of course, FM23-9 and FMFM-08 & 09.

    This is more of a streamlined program specificly addressing AK gun manipulations. Pretty much everything in the book will "slot in" to any general rifle or defensive carbine course, it's just my take on a simplified training progression.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Metro Detroit, MI
    Posts
    3,650
    Quote Originally Posted by KTR03
    First off, my AK shoots 3 MOA all day long. 8 MOA is awful. I'll split the difference with you call it 5 MOA. 5 inch group at 100 yards.
    Now that means roughly 2.5 inches at 50 yards. The overwhelming majority of LE long gun shootings take place within fifty yards, most within coversational distance. I am not talking sniping here, I am talking about about basic urban fighting. At the ranges that most shootings happen, a weapon that shoots 2.5 inches at 50 yards is plenty accurate.
    Well great than lets talk about what we aren't on the same page with...

    Quote Originally Posted by KTR03
    Now throw better reliability, enhanced lethality.... .
    Tools are tools the world over. They all have their strength and weaknesses so qualifying statements like this fly in the face of the truth. Most problems are operator error or the operator's failure to keep the equipment in good working order; the next is faulty equipment and poor training or the lack of training.

    There are AAR from Iraq citing the specific poor performance of the AK 7.62x39 ammo on our soldiers. The believed cause of this to be the surplus ammo from the mid-twentieth century. Given newer European ammo the issue seems to be mitigated. Moving to choices of good quality US ammo and now we have a serious discussion ;).

    Quote Originally Posted by KTR03
    Different strokes for different folks. I can tell you that in California and Washington state, I have had many officers show up with there M4's decorated like XMAS trees with all sorts of gadgets. The first role over prone drill we do, the AR's kick up a cloud of fine grit and quit working. AK's will run.
    Standard this vs. that argument...

    Quote Originally Posted by KTR03
    I don't expect to see cops in this country adopt commie rifles, but don't compare a 280 dollar beater AK with a Krebs rifle, Galil, Valmet, or other fine variant. They would make fine LE carbines for general use.
    Yes, I don't want to compare the finest AK variants with the garbage that can come out of the East. However, the reason why US LE agencies go with the AR is due in no small part to the fact that the AR has been this countries major battle rifle for the last ~30+ years. If it was a Kreb's built AK that our US forces went to war with I suspect it be a different story. Transition of many military personnel into LE and the familiarity of training is another factor. Given a well-built AK variant the litigation and liability factor is lessoned, and would revolve more around training and the selection of ammo. In regard to ammo selection the AK does suffer from a lack of great loads.

    I believe that both systems have their strenght and weaknesses, but regardless of those the real issue is the operator - end of story.
    Section1

    "If war is ever lawful, then peace is sometimes sinful."

    C.S. Lewis

    "Me? I think all of that is a load of gun school crap. I train and teach to shoot them to the ground. Beginning at the chest I shoot a burst to the chest and run the line up til I get to the face. Winning their hearts and minds....Suarez style."


    Gabe Suarez

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Sonoran Desert
    Posts
    3,562
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Gomez
    Regardless of the inherent capability of the weapon platform, the operator can, rarely, shoot up to the capability of his gun.

    In a class earlier this year, I watched one 'high speed' fellow go from shooting 1/4-inch groups [prone @ 25M] to dropping rounds off the target when the shooting & moving started, while the guy next to him maintained 6-inch groups throughout the course.

    The 1/4-inch guy was shooting a fancy Les Baer AR and the 6-inch guy was running a box-stock SAR-1.

    "Perfection is the enemy of good enough.";)

    I love hearing stories like that. It is akin to David and Goliath. Here comes the giant with all the frills, and then the little guy with a stone takes him out. Classic, poetic, awesome!!!

    Kobra
    Livin' the ruthless lifestyle!

    Remember that when seconds count the police are only minutes away!

    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
    H.L. Mencken

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Sonoran Desert
    Posts
    3,562
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Gomez
    To answer some of the questions that I've been receiving regarding the 'Urban AK' curriculum and the 'Combative Kalashnikov' book project, here goes:

    Urban AK class outline

    Firearms Safety & Weapon System Orientation
    Sling Carry/Dismount
    Load/Unload/Reload
    Conditions of Readiness
    Transition to Pistol
    Stoppage Reductions
    Ready Positions
    Integrated Act of Firing
    Firing Positions
    Movement
    Weapon Retention
    Wyatt Protocol drills

    Combative Kalashnikov book overview

    The focus is on using the AK family of weapons in the "urban/social/defensive/insert highspeed buzzword here" environment. That translates to definitive gunhandling for the system and understanding the role of the long gun in the pistol/short range [25M & in] fight, as opposed to traditional gravelbelly 300M work.

    The basic rundown is:

    I.Understanding the role of the carbine in self defense
    II.Firearm Safety
    III.Design Orientation
    IV.Manipulating the Safety
    V.Loading, Unloading & Status Check
    VI. Integrated Act of Firing
    VII.Ready Positions
    VIII.Deployment from Sling Carry
    IX.Reloading the Rifle
    X.Transitions & Malfunctions
    XI.Primary Shooting Positions
    XII.Zeroing the AK
    XIII.Accessorizing the AK family
    XIV.The 360 Degree Problem
    Techniques that seem functional on a traditional square range are glaringly inadequate to the task of dealing with a target-sparse, dynamic environment.
    XV.The Five-Foot Fight
    Fights in the real world tend to occur in very close confines. This is true regardless of what weapons you have brought to the fight, so it is in your best interest to have the skills necessary to address nonfiring applications of the longarm in spontaneously occurring situations.

    Nothing fancy and not a monsterous tomb covering all the permutations and variations of techniques. There are plenty of those available including Jim Crews "Urban Carbine", Gabe Suarez's "The Tactical Carbine", Chuck Taylors "The Fighting Rifle" &, of course, FM23-9 and FMFM-08 & 09.

    This is more of a streamlined program specificly addressing AK gun manipulations. Pretty much everything in the book will "slot in" to any general rifle or defensive carbine course, it's just my take on a simplified training progression.

    Sounds great, bro. I'm curious about the phrase "integrated act of firing." What does "integrated" denote?

    Thanks, Kobra
    Livin' the ruthless lifestyle!

    Remember that when seconds count the police are only minutes away!

    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
    H.L. Mencken

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    416
    I use the phrase "integrated act of firing" to denote the application of 'rifle marksmanship fundamentals' applied rapidly & consistently. Instead of teaching steady position, aiming, breath control, trigger press and followthrough as disparate pieces, I prefer to teach them under the label 'IAOF'.

    The IAOF is a cycle which moves through the fundamentals and ends, back at the beginning, so to speak, with the trigger prepped and the shot 90% committed. This allows you to spend time accessing the situation which, otherwise, would be spent manipulating the gun.

    It all comes back to efficiency.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Sonoran Desert
    Posts
    3,562
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Gomez
    I use the phrase "integrated act of firing" to denote the application of 'rifle marksmanship fundamentals' applied rapidly & consistently. Instead of teaching steady position, aiming, breath control, trigger press and followthrough as disparate pieces, I prefer to teach them under the label 'IAOF'.

    The IAOF is a cycle which moves through the fundamentals and ends, back at the beginning, so to speak, with the trigger prepped and the shot 90% committed. This allows you to spend time accessing the situation which, otherwise, would be spent manipulating the gun.

    It all comes back to efficiency.

    That is awesome! Have you ever considered a trip to Arizona? ;-) You could stay with Gabe. ;-)

    Kobra
    Livin' the ruthless lifestyle!

    Remember that when seconds count the police are only minutes away!

    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
    H.L. Mencken

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