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  1. #51
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    [quote=stanmann;644923]
    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanSkyCop1 View Post


    Or 44 cal black powder cap and ball. thousands killed by that load too.

    Yep...

    You can mail order those no paperwork required (in most places). If it's well loaded and kept dry their reasonably reliable. I believe it was up in Oregon a number of years back an old gentlemen was wakened by an intruder, he grabbed a ~.69cal flintlock and shot the guy dead center mass. The intruder left in a bag.... No we all should not go out and buy flintlocks for defense. We also should not forget that they are effective and nothing to laugh at.
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. Havamal 38

  2. #52
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    [quote=ScottT;644761]
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post

    Agreed. A lot of folks were killed with pistol rounds for years before folks started shooting jello and trying to figure out what it meant.

    Folks don't come any tougher or harder to stop or kill today. Now, I cannot think of a single law enforcement agency in these sue-happy times that makes its decisions on what folks carry based on much more than low bid or performance in jello. But that does not mean that the old ways are outdated or that folks cannot be stopped with a lead alloy bullet. The physics have not changed.
    How many of those killed died days/weeks later? How many of them needed multiple shots to stop trying to do harm (IIRC the 158gr LRN 38spl was nicknamed the widowmaker)? The Colt Navy 36 cal cap and ball worked physics hasn't changed, but, I don't see many people carrying a Colt Navy. Don't see many folks not out in a rural location carrying SA revolvers either.

    It doesn't take much serious thought to decide a 200gr Cor-bon is at least the equal of a 240gr SWC in a 44spl. Killing isn't the goal; making them stop ASAP is the goal.

  3. #53
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    [quote=grimel;645015]
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottT View Post

    How many of those killed died days/weeks later? How many of them needed multiple shots to stop trying to do harm (IIRC the 158gr LRN 38spl was nicknamed the widowmaker)? The Colt Navy 36 cal cap and ball worked physics hasn't changed, but, I don't see many people carrying a Colt Navy. Don't see many folks not out in a rural location carrying SA revolvers either.

    It doesn't take much serious thought to decide a 200gr Cor-bon is at least the equal of a 240gr SWC in a 44spl. Killing isn't the goal; making them stop ASAP is the goal.

    Well I believe that if their dead their stopped.......
    Last edited by Saxon; 12-28-2008 at 03:29 PM.
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. Havamal 38

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Well I believe that if their dead their stopped.......
    I guess you feel 22lr is a great SD gun then. I seem to recall more dead folks each year from 22lr than anything else.

    AGAIN, it isn't about killing someone it is about stopping them NOW. See Miami FBI shootout. I seem to recall it taking 4+ minutes before the BG died after killing & maiming multiple FBI agents.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by grimel View Post
    I guess you feel 22lr is a great SD gun then. I seem to recall more dead folks each year from 22lr than anything else.

    AGAIN, it isn't about killing someone it is about stopping them NOW. See Miami FBI shootout. I seem to recall it taking 4+ minutes before the BG died after killing & maiming multiple FBI agents.

    I believe the topic is .44 but I could be wrong. I said nothing about .22.

    I have read the FBI shoot out and understand the issue.

    I believe that in the end it was "PENETRATION" that was attributed to the failure to "stop" the bad guy. Although there are other reasons why the BG kept going. And what penetrates better HPs or solid alloy.... Solid alloy.....

    And I believe that if the FBI bullets "penetrated" the BG would have been "Killed" and thus "Stopped" thus saving lives.......Penetration...... My goodness
    Last edited by Saxon; 12-28-2008 at 06:38 PM.
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. Havamal 38

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    I believe the topic is .44 but I could be wrong. I said nothing about .22.
    You said killed was stopped. If killing stopped people, the 22lr would be the ulitmate stopper.

    I have read the FBI shoot out and understand the issue. I don't think you do.....
    Would you care to place that in the form of a wager.

    I believe that in the end it was "PENETRATION" that was attributed to the failure to "stop" the bad guy. Although there are other reasons why the BG kept going. And what penetrates better HPs or solid alloy.... Solid alloy.....

    And I believe that if the FBI bullets "penetrated" the BG would have been "Killed" and thus "Stopped" thus saving lives.......Penetration...... My goodness
    Umm, I guess you forgot the part about him being dead. I guess you missed the parts about the first hit being fatal. I guess you missed the part about him functioning for 4+ minutes after he was dead and didn't know it.

    I guess all the various dead critters which travel long distance after they are punched through and through (without breaking down the skeletal structure) didn't realize they were stopped even though they ran several minutes after being "dead".

    IOW, killing still doesn't mean stopped. You can make all the rolling eyes you choose.

    Oh, as a side note to further your education, a solid alloy doesn't ensure pentration. Such things as hardness and design (see the soft alloy LSWCHP's) are at least as important.

    There is a reason DocR has the 135gr +P GD and the 148gr WC as the top two loads for the 38spl snubs. Funny how they are the two extremes in tech.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by grimel View Post
    You said killed was stopped. If killing stopped people, the 22lr would be the ulitmate stopper.



    Would you care to place that in the form of a wager.



    Umm, I guess you forgot the part about him being dead. I guess you missed the parts about the first hit being fatal. I guess you missed the part about him functioning for 4+ minutes after he was dead and didn't know it.

    I guess all the various dead critters which travel long distance after they are punched through and through (without breaking down the skeletal structure) didn't realize they were stopped even though they ran several minutes after being "dead".

    IOW, killing still doesn't mean stopped. You can make all the rolling eyes you choose.

    Oh, as a side note to further your education, a solid alloy doesn't ensure pentration. Such things as hardness and design (see the soft alloy LSWCHP's) are at least as important.

    There is a reason DocR has the 135gr +P GD and the 148gr WC as the top two loads for the 38spl snubs. Funny how they are the two extremes in tech.

    So....

    What works better a HP the penetrates the sternum and the heart and stops or....

    The Solid the penetrates the the sternum, the heart, the spine and exits.......

    Pretty simple perhaps to simple....


    Oh the lead alloy I generally shoot tests out at +22 on the brinell scale. A bit harder than most.... I hand load.
    Last edited by Saxon; 12-28-2008 at 06:56 PM.
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. Havamal 38

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    I guess I'm not following your train of thought here. Your most likely to hit a wall if you miss a bag guy. Yep there are always walls behind BGs....Hmmmm...OKKKKK..
    That's not what I said. You tried to dismiss the point about overpenetration by saying that it didn't matter because cops can't shoot. I pointed out that hollowpoints are far less likely to ricochet when striking a hard surface than a solid; which is a fact. Either way, my point is that hollowpoints bring certain advantages that solids simply don't, IMHO. As I mentioned elsewhere, I have never been in a gunfight so everything I'm saying is based upon what research I have done and what has been said to me by individuals who HAVE been in gunfights. Every piece of information I've been able to find tells me that solids tend to go right through bad guys, a fact that results in the majority of the bullet's energy NOT being transferred to the bad guy. Based on EVERYTHING I have encountered in my research one truism has been that overpenetration is BAD, despite your apparent opinion to the contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    Yep lead does ricochet but then again is "that" really an issue no because all bullets ricochet...
    HPs produce less of a ricochet danger than solids, just as they produce less of an overpenetration risk AND produce a greater likelihood (how great will no doubt remain a subject of intense debate) of dropping an attacker quickly; all of which is, in my opinion, a GOOD THING. If you want to shoot solids, go for it. Yes, solids can do the job and have done the job for years. I, however, remain convinced that solids are NOT the best choice.
    "I'd rather live in a violent tumultuous, but free land, than in a controlled, safe, but oppressed one." - Gabe Suarez.

  9. #59
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    This horse is SOOOO dead, only buzzards will feed on it. Think I just insulted myself. But anyways. One word, progress. Not counting military, for urban use in social situations, modern HP's are the way to go. Yes, anything that once worked, still will. A brown bess, a teenage pizza delivery boy, etc., lethal. Best choice ? NO. Me, and a few others have already listed currently available best choices in the caliber .44 spec.. steve b

  10. #60
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    I do clearly see a difference between city/urban use, and rural, field use. The .44spec crosses over nicely. If I pull something outta the closet chambered in .44spec to carry amongst my fellow human beans, around houses, buildings, others, the HP's go into the cylinder. If I'm going scouting for deer sign, going to camp, steelhead fishing, and the possible target list is mostly made up of things with 4 legs, with lots of open space or timber around, the hardcast loads come out to play. We have many options available today, silly to draw a line in the dirt and argue like this. The forum is combat revolvers, not coyote/bear revolvers. The thread is .44spec loads. steve b

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