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  1. #41
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    [quote=Saxon;642905]
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
    Over the years I have found that hard bullets in hand guns just seem to work better under a wider range of conditions which is why I suggest them.
    Yeah, that's why sooooo many law enforcement agencies are using hard bullets instead of JHPs nowadays, right? Oh wait, they're doing just the opposite?

    Saxon, with all due respect, I dare you to name me one, JUST ONE, L.E. agency that has had worse results in actual shootings after switching from solids (FMJ, RNL, SWC, whatever) to JHPs or LHPs.
    Hooah, God bless, and Fight On,

    TrojanSkyCop1
    DDM and recovering former JBGT
    I'm no longer with the government, but I'm still here to help

    ERIN GO BRAGH and ALBA GU BRATH!

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    I could see this argument in a world where every round hit target however, the reality is that every round doesn't hit target. So in thinking this through one should load with HP because of the increased damage it can do and the limited penetration. So what happens when the HPs miss target and hit innocent bystanders.....You see the paradox
    Yet another reason why the JHP makes more sense. Miss the bad guy and the thing you're most likely to hit is a wall. HPs are far less prone to ricochet than solid rounds.
    "I'd rather live in a violent tumultuous, but free land, than in a controlled, safe, but oppressed one." - Gabe Suarez.

  3. #43
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    Nov 2004
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    110
    [quote=TrojanSkyCop1;644559]
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post

    Yeah, that's why sooooo many law enforcement agencies are using hard bullets instead of JHPs nowadays, right? Oh wait, they're doing just the opposite?

    Saxon, with all due respect, I dare you to name me one, JUST ONE, L.E. agency that has had worse results in actual shootings after switching from solids (FMJ, RNL, SWC, whatever) to JHPs or LHPs.


    Let me guess if it's not used by a law enforcement agency then it doesn't work... OK makes sense to me. Lets keep up with the Jones and all that stuff...... Hmmm sounds like one of those yuppy things. I guess the hundreds of thousands of people killed with Lead/FMJ ammo don't count.......Hmmmm. History tells a different story, I don't have to name any one because alloyed lead bullets have been around a lot longer than HP's. And they still work just fine.
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. Havamal 38

  4. #44
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    Nov 2004
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    110
    Quote Originally Posted by 6Gunner View Post
    Yet another reason why the JHP makes more sense. Miss the bad guy and the thing you're most likely to hit is a wall. HPs are far less prone to ricochet than solid rounds.
    I guess I'm not following your train of thought here. Your most likely to hit a wall if you miss a bag guy. Yep there are always walls behind BGs....Hmmmm...OKKKKK..
    Solids don't generally fragment when the hit the proverbial wall. Jacked HPs do. The jacket separates from the core etc. How many times have you been hit by jacketed shrapnel at the range, me personally a lot....
    Yep lead does ricochet but then again is "that" really an issue no because all bullets ricochet...
    Last edited by Saxon; 12-27-2008 at 06:34 PM.
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. Havamal 38

  5. #45
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    Nov 2004
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    110
    [quote=ScottT;644761]
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post

    Agreed. A lot of folks were killed with pistol rounds for years before folks started shooting jello and trying to figure out what it meant.

    Folks don't come any tougher or harder to stop or kill today. Now, I cannot think of a single law enforcement agency in these sue-happy times that makes its decisions on what folks carry based on much more than low bid or performance in jello. But that does not mean that the old ways are outdated or that folks cannot be stopped with a lead alloy bullet. The physics have not changed.

    Thank you........:)
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. Havamal 38

  6. #46
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    Feb 2006
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    TSC, I don't get it either but I think I smell something, PEEEUUUUUU ! Rank !

  7. #47
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    [quote=Saxon;644754]
    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanSkyCop1 View Post



    Let me guess if it's not used by a law enforcement agency then it doesn't work... OK makes sense to me. Lets keep up with the Jones and all that stuff...... Hmmm sounds like one of those yuppy things. I guess the hundreds of thousands of people killed with Lead/FMJ ammo don't count.......Hmmmm. History tells a different story, I don't have to name any one because alloyed lead bullets have been around a lot longer than HP's. And they still work just fine.
    Oh for crying out loud, nobody's questioning the killing power of solids; if mere lethality were all that we were concerned with, then hell, we could all carry 22LRs or .25 ACPs for all defensive applications. Jeez Louise...
    Hooah, God bless, and Fight On,

    TrojanSkyCop1
    DDM and recovering former JBGT
    I'm no longer with the government, but I'm still here to help

    ERIN GO BRAGH and ALBA GU BRATH!

  8. #48
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    May 2008
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    Near Columbia SC
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    1,037
    [QUOTE=TrojanSkyCop1;644911]
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post

    Oh for crying out loud, nobody's questioning the killing power of solids; if mere lethality were all that we were concerned with, then hell, we could all carry 22LRs or .25 ACPs for all defensive applications. Jeez Louise...

    Or 44 cal black powder cap and ball. thousands killed by that load too.
    Vegetarians eat Vegetables, Humanitarians frighten me.

    You ought to discover some day that words have an exact meaning.--Francisco d'Anconia--Ayn Rand

  9. #49
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    Nov 2004
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    110
    [quote=TrojanSkyCop1;644911]
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post

    Oh for crying out loud, nobody's questioning the killing power of solids; if mere lethality were all that we were concerned with, then hell, we could all carry 22LRs or .25 ACPs for all defensive applications. Jeez Louise...
    They Kill that's pretty simple......what's the issue....
    Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without. Havamal 38

  10. #50
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    Aug 2005
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    Oh bother. steve b

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