The AK at 600 Yards / frozen chosin AAR

[DC950]

In previous life I've seen moving targets hit at ranges of 300-450 meters... With both 5.45 and 7.62. I had to qualify on moving targets (shooting burst- not semi) at 300... With stock iron sights.
Also in previous life I have heard anecdotal stories from those who have been and done... stories of 500+ meters shots with intended targets not complaining of non-sufficient energy transfer...
But what do I know...

well, you obviously don't know how much better a Garand would be ;).

Thanks for the AK training in Chatanooga. I'm practicing all the positions against my little boys with their new Christmas present dart rifles. Pretty good room clearing training against those guys, much better than by yourself.

[jcart]

Jack,

If this has been answered already forgive the question.
What were the barrel lenghts on the AK's used to reach that 600yd target?
I am interested in the theory of long barrel vs. short barrel accuracy that was mentioned in a previous thread about using a 308 GSR 16" vs 21".
Personal preference is the shorter barrel with flash suppression.
I drove up to Krebs and looked at a 21" yesterday, gotta admit it does look nice.

[Hummermole]

What were the barrel lenghts on the AK's used to reach that 600yd target?
I am interested in the theory of long barrel vs. short barrel accuracy that was mentioned in a previous thread about using a 308 GSR 16" vs 21".
Personal preference is the shorter barrel with flash suppression.

jcart,

My Vepr has the 16" barrel with flash suppressor.

Chan

[Prairie Fire]

I was there both days, and the long-range AK hit capabilities on the second day were truly impressive. The hit percentages as previously posted, were not what anybody could call as being done at a slow rate of fire. I estimated the rate as a shot every two seconds.

JaS mentioned a couple of other shooters who were impressed after shooting his WASR at either 4 or 500 yards. Both are in the 55-65yo block shooting iron sights, and both are Master class Service rifle shooters. One of them has been a major force for close to a decade, in putting on the 300-50yard event (the Army's Excellence in Competition match), inviting "civilians" as well as current military. I should have had a camera to record him this past weekend, shooting a folding stock AK with irons at that long distance. The word I'd heard before was that nobody has ever done well on the EIC with an AK or M1 Carbine. And nobody tried last weekend, that will probably change.

There was another rifle worth mentioning, doing the steel gongs from 400-600. It was a nice M700 .260 Remington with 120g SMKs going at about 2900fps. That rifle's beaten zone was centered on the silhouette, and made good clangs thru ear protection, even at distance. The AK's beaten zone resulted in many hits more peripheral on the targets, with less noise and a longer return time. They were still day-ruining hits.

[Jack-O]

Jack,

If this has been answered already forgive the question.
What were the barrel lenghts on the AK's used to reach that 600yd target?
I am interested in the theory of long barrel vs. short barrel accuracy that was mentioned in a previous thread about using a 308 GSR 16" vs 21".
Personal preference is the shorter barrel with flash suppression.
I drove up to Krebs and looked at a 21" yesterday, gotta admit it does look nice.

every one was using 16" barrels. I suppose that a 20" would do a little better velocity wise.

I will point out that when I ran the numbers on the energy qand velocity at that range, that the 762x39 still has almost EXACTLY what a 9mm 124fmj ball has at the muzzle. the numbers came to 1130 fps and 327 ft lbs. hmmm what a coincidence huh?

I was kinda thinking about things on the way home and several events at the shoot pointed out to me yet again the fact that when you try to make a thing into something it's not you get into trouble with reliability and useability. These are 2 REALLY important things in a rifle.

My advice? The AK is what it is. dont try too hard to make it soomething different, just realize it's strengths and capabilities and use it accordingly (see my 30 cal 4 moa rule of halves). I'm not the first to say this and I wont be the last.

Note to those who could not attend:
These shoots are always a learning expereince for me. I learn as much at these as I do at most gun courses. The broad differences in rifles and gear when compared side by side, really helps shine light into otherwise dark areas. Lots to be gained here with little expense involved.

jack

[RMMc]

Jack, thanks again for posting this review, great info! It has been very helpful to me during my transition to the dark side.

[badman400]

Jack I read this thread with interest and pleasure. I have always thought that my two AK's were more capable than most would give them credit for.

Also I see in your original post where there was an XCR doing well until it "kaboomed". Can you elaborate? Do you know what caused it. Ammo for sure, or the gun?

I have an XCR and am so far amazed and delighted with it. Thanks for any more info, and keep up the good work!

[austin]

Thanks for the AK training in Chatanooga. I'm practicing all the positions against my little boys with their new Christmas present dart rifles. Pretty good room clearing training against those guys, much better than by yourself.

LOL. That would be fun! I'll have to try with my nephews the next time they visit.

[crebralfix]

(from one of Jack's posts)

one thing thats easy to forget is that while a one shot kill is cool, that round that hits an arm or a leg puts the shooter into a defensive mode and thus 'out of action'. that means less rounds in your direction. Only hits count and any hit is better than a deadly accurate miss.

One of WT's own, a sniper in the USMC, said that the "one shot, one kill" mantra is so much BS on the modern battlefield. Note the word "battlefield." This is just something to keep in mind because there's too much going on in a real battle.

[Jack-O]

Jack I read this thread with interest and pleasure. I have always thought that my two AK's were more capable than most would give them credit for.

Also I see in your original post where there was an XCR doing well until it "kaboomed". Can you elaborate? Do you know what caused it. Ammo for sure, or the gun?

I have an XCR and am so far amazed and delighted with it. Thanks for any more info, and keep up the good work!

The XCR apparently had a bad barrel or chamber. As you know the barrel assembly is a modular part. Robinson was outsourcing these but they were not happy with the product and service they were getting. When I talked to Alex last tuesday about the kaboom. he mentioned that they were actually buying a barrel machine that day. I guess that they will be doing these in house now so they can control the quality and timing better.
If you check out the XCR forum I did a fairly complete writeup on this so others can recognize this problem before it goes bad.
http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,...topicseen.html