The AK at 600 Yards / frozen chosin AAR

[RMMc]

Jack, on the 600 range test at 20%. What kind of over-all pattern were you getting? Was the backstop set up that you could see how close the misses were?

[Razorback]

We sighted out to 300 on pulled and marked targets using stock IRON sights. . . .using a Romanian wasr with a romy folder. . .Ammo I was using was 762x39 Wolf 122gr HP black box. . .

OK, so with what is generally considered the crappiest AK with the crappiest ammo, you were able to hit at 500 yards with irons sights with regularity. So much for "only ARs and battle rifles can do that. . ."

NOTE ON VOLLEY FIRE

We aslo tried messing around with some volley fire where all shooters concentrated on one target and let off 3 rounds. we had at least 50% hits at 600 yards. I'm betting that even just 3 AK shooters at 600 yards concentrating on a single target could provide a beaten zone of 4'x4' and anything in that zone would be quite dead. volley fire is something I hadnt considered before and was brought up by the WSSA president as something they had played with 'back in the day' it seems like an interesting concept and would further increase the effective range of a small squad of partisans equipped only with the humble AK.

Imagine what a squad of partisan snipers or riflemen could do with some volley fire!!

This is a concept that we should look into further. even at closer ranges, this "team tactic" could be an extrememly effective tool to ensure target destruction.

There was some posts on the KISSATA forum about this. They figured that a regular Joe can't really afford a "sniper rifle" or usually even a battle rifle. So why not take advantage of all those cheap Mosin Nagants and their cheap steel-core ammo. Get a squad/group/whatever together. Since this is guerrilla warfare, you're not going to be humping 80 pound rucks. So why not carry 8-9 pounds of MN, and maybe 15 rounds of ammo in addition to your AK and 5 mags. You target high value targets like "enemy" radio shacks/tents, fuel tanks, etc. Pick 3 targets for your raid. Each guy fires 5 rounds at each of the targets, volley style, then slings the MNs and hustles out of there.

[Jack-O]

crebral,
you have PM

Silk,
The best I could tell from the berm dust hits I was holding within a foot or so around the target with a flyer going about 3-4 feet off somewhere. the main "beaten zone" was about 3'x3' give or take a little. at 600 yards 4-5 MOA is 24"-30" add sight and shooter error, plus wind and the drop below subsonic and things get dismal real quick for accuracy.
at 600 yards the steel was about 1/3 the width of the front sight.

[gilmoreaz]

comments
-the x39 was not really whacking the gong at these ranges and you could usually only hear a slight 'tink' it was definitly running out of gas at these ranges.
Jack

Jack,

Could some of the "slight tink" be caused by being 500 to 600 yards away (and wearing hearing protection) in addition to the bullet "running out of gas" ?

Just wondering . . .

Gilmore
P.S. Great review
.
.

[1034me]

That 308 Siaga is starting to sound less and less attractive. It sounds like I need to spend time practicing with 762x39 AK’s. Thanks for the range report.

[RMMc]

crebral,
you have PM

Silk,
The best I could tell from the berm dust hits I was holding within a foot or so around the target with a flyer going about 3-4 feet off somewhere. the main "beaten zone" was about 3'x3' give or take a little. at 600 yards 4-5 MOA is 24"-30" add sight and shooter error, plus wind and the drop below subsonic and things get dismal real quick for accuracy.
at 600 yards the steel was about 1/3 the width of the front sight.

All considered.... Thats pretty dang good!!! Thanks for the review!

[Jack-O]

I think that in general most people underestimate the capabilities of thier guns. these 'pariah' guns are quite capable of long range kills, mostly the blame lies on the shooters not being educated to thier own potential. This stuff aint that hard to do. the shots I was making, I wasnt eve using the sling and was just resting the guns mag on a rifle BOB.

I really believe that most folks can do this if they wouldonly try, and if they would just learn the fundamentals like Natural point of aim and trigger pull.

heres an exercise for you
set up a target at 25 yards with several 1" circles or squares. If you can put all your rounds on that square then you can hit a man out to 500 yards. In fact I will say from experience that hitting that SOB'ing square at 25 is much harder that at 500 yards. keeing your roundsin that square is in fact 4MOA, which by the armchair commando's ruler is exactly 3 MOA too much for a "real" rifle!!

Practical accuracy is a good deal different than target accuracy. I have a rifle that will shoot into 1" at 100, but when I run it on these courses all that capacity get forgotten, and I'm darn happy to see a nice 4-5" group on target under field conditions and stress. Sure the extra accuracy helps a bit, but it's brutally obvious where the error comes from!!

one thing thats easy to forget is that while a one shot kill is cool, that round that hits an arm or a leg puts the shooter into a defensive mode and thus 'out of action'. that means less rounds in your direction. Only hits count and any hit is better than a deadly accurate miss.

[Tom Cornelius]

I've shot at 600 yards with a pre ban Norinco. That rifle could hit a man sized target at 600 yards. There is alot of sophistication that AK rifles have built in to them. No, it was not what critics would call precision shooting, but it would have produced lethal results. The rear sight was
well regulated... Simple yet lethal at all practical ranges...

[choirboy]

I have shot several AK's in 7.62x39 at 500. I had a 4x8 ply wood target backer and a 16" steel clanger made for using shepherd scopes.
I bulk cut newspapers into a 2/3 torso target and use "ground" paint to make them orange. I also paint the clanger.

I use old packing paper from ups orders or if I run out I a roll of 24 inch auto painter's masking paper on the whole target board. I both glue and staple it so it lasts for several shooting sessions. My frigging cows will lick the targets for the glue if the are "mowing" my range.

The best group I got was from one of the Polytechs which was 26-28 inches. I did put several hits on the target. As I recall I ran an even 100 rounds using clintonista 5 round mags which are handy on the bench. They are also the only AK mags that I tossed because of malfunctions in multiple guns.

The AK winner was a Norinco in .223. It would hold 16-20 inch groups. When I shot 16 inch steel I had multiple pings in 3-30 shot mags (no 5 shot for the .223).

When shooting the 16 inch target I had to put my site under it and the site was 3x the target so there was some "guesstimation" in site picture.
All of these were preheart attack/strokes.

I still cling to my beloved M1-A's but I sure as hell would not want to be a 500 yard target of a handful of skilled guys aiming AK's

Choirboy

[Alfred E Neuman]

"with a slight cow manure taste to the air"

Now that there is your essential element to good shooting.

I do just fine with my AK to 300 but at 500 - 600 I'd be minute of SUV. Next time I get the opportunity I will take it more seriously. Mac

Out here in Utah where you can see a bit further due to lack of trees, I can hit 600 yards with an AK no problem. I have shot 800 yards also but you have to be an artillery man and range them in.

I can probably also hit with an AR at that distance but you cannot really see much of a splash against the dirt due to the tiny bullet. I wonder if that is a real life differentiator....being able to see the impact of the bullet so that you can change your aim. Certainly the 308 hits with more authority and you tend to know where you hit. But I really have to look to see an AR hit; especially when there is some snow out there.

Another issue is heavy clothing on the badguys. Which bullet would penetrate thick clothing better? I had a former Ruskie soldier that fought in Afghan say that many preferred the heavier bullet for that reason (versus the 5.46)

I don't see much difference in wind deflection between the 5.56 and the 7.62x39 at that range. If the wind is blowing, it always takes a couple of shots to range it in.

My problem with the AK...and I have a note into Fuller... is that I want a nice flattop to put a scope or reddot on. My two Vectors do not come with side rail and I do not have any good options that I have found.