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  1. #1
    Jack-O is offline Doom and Gloom Pinhead Banned By Admin
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    Default The AK at 600 Yards / frozen chosin AAR

    Worland Wy, this weekend. we had 16 people show, 3 WT'ers. guns shot included, ar-15, 3 AK's, M1 Garands, M14, AR-10, SVT-40, XCR, Rem 700 sniper.
    day 1
    classic iron sighted rifles performed as expected on the 300-50 match. with the garand taking a 240 out of 300 and the SVT-40 139 out of 300. the AR-10 scoped took high honors tho, beating the garand shooter.

    in the human wave attack, the garands performed much lower than the 20-30 round mag fed rifles getting off less than 75 rounds in 3 min. the mag feds did markedly better with the highest score going to an AK that managed 98 rounds and 89% hits. The XCR was on the way to domination when it Kaboomed.

    day 2
    we just sighted our guns and farted around on steel out to 600. Now I know this defy's conventional wisdom and everyone was really amazed at the results, BUUUT heres what we saw the AK do.
    We sighted out to 300 on pulled and marked targets using stock IRON sights.

    We moved back to 400 and proceeded to put rounds on steel with a spotter calling shots. using a Romanian wasr with a romy folder I was able to get about 85% hits on steel from prone with no problem. a few flyers and some shooter error were mostly responsible for misses. results were repeated by 4 other shooters on my gun and a VEPR as well.

    At 500 we attempted again. we adjusted sights using only the factory ramp settings throughout the experiment having zeroed earlier out to 300. once again we were able to obtain 80% hits with relative ease using the "200 yard" AK. once again we verified using another shooter.

    Back to 600!! once again spotted shots with wasr/folder. despite my best efforts I couldn't keep them on the steel more that 20% of the time.
    600 seems to be the crossover point on a mansized target using ball ammo and service grade rifle. I have confirmed this with several rifles and feel that after 500 one must use a much more capable gun and ammo to consistently make hits. a rest/pack/bipod is alomost required at this range as well.

    Ammo I was using was 762x39 Wolf 122gr HP black box. steel was 16"w x 36"h shaped like a sillouete. 5 mph half value wind at 25f and 4050ft elev. with a slight cow manure taste to the air.

    comments
    -the x39 was not really whacking the gong at these ranges and you could usually only hear a slight 'tink' it was definitly running out of gas at these ranges.
    -the factory ramp sight settings seemed to be right on.
    -the front sight is wider than the target, but by using a 6 o'clock hold and centering the target on the sight post, you can still be fairly accurate.
    -i was using a pack and the mag for a rest. sometimes a loose mag would cause a failure to feed if i put pressure on the mag wrong. this might be gun related or mag related. not sure.
    -I have wrapped the romy folder with some gauze then overwrapped with electrical tape. it's actually quite comfortable, looks fine and does not interfere with operation. the stock is not wobly in the least and fairly comfortable to shoot overall.
    -the WASR was bone stock except for the folder, and prints about 4-5 MOA when i checked it with this ammo a coupla weeks ago.
    -whoever told you that you cant hit with an AK at 500, lied to you. It's VERY doable.
    -hopefully one of the other guys will back me upon this so I dont look like a big liar.

    Jack

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack A Sol
    -the WASR was bone stock except for the folder, and prints about 4-5 MOA when i checked it with this ammo a coupla weeks ago.
    -whoever told you that you cant hit with an AK at 500, lied to you. It's VERY doable.
    Jack,

    I think that the anti-AK crowd (read that "gun mafia") has lied to us about all manner of things, and NOT just about the AK.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #3
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    Nice to know the AK is capable reaching out. Now its pretty much a human problem.

  4. #4
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    Great writeup Jack, thanks!

  5. #5
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    J--

    Would you be able to test this using better ammo? I was thinking some Cor-Bon or match grade ammo. I'd like to see if that WASR's groups tighten up any.
    Last edited by crebralfix; 01-07-2008 at 11:56 AM.

  6. #6
    Grape Ape Guest
    You must be wrong. You can't hit anything with an AK, much less a WASR at 500 yards.

    Oh and a folding stock, those are too uncomfortable to use.

    :p

    Unfortunately all I can test out to so far is 350.

    Good shooting.

  7. #7
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    "with a slight cow manure taste to the air"

    Now that there is your essential element to good shooting.

    I do just fine with my AK to 300 but at 500 - 600 I'd be minute of SUV. Next time I get the opportunity I will take it more seriously. Mac

  8. #8
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    Ya know... the supplier for the group-buy on .223 had reportedly said they weren't doing 7.62x39 because they didn't feel they had a sufficiently accurate rifle to test from. I got a Rossi single-shot in 7.62 Russ to go with my AKs... its not Krieger barreled, but I think it would serve.;)

  9. #9
    Jack-O is offline Doom and Gloom Pinhead Banned By Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by crebralfix
    J--

    Would you be able to test this using better ammo? I was thinking some Cor-Bon or match grade ammo. I'd like to see if that WASR's groups tighten up any.
    I dont have any corbon, what other ammo would you suggest? I can try with some american remington stuff I think or maybe some UMC or federal. The wolf was fairly consistent tho. If you send me 20 rounds of whatever, Then I will be happy to put it on paper for you. I have tried the wolf, some cheetah, and barnaul and thats all so far results were best with the wolf but very close to the others. I may try some yugo stuff sooner or later. My results on the 16" steel would lead me to beleive that it was closer to 3-4 MOA than 4-5 MOA as I stated above, but I do try to understate rather than artificially inflate the numbers.

    NOTE ON VOLLEY FIRE

    We aslo tried messing around with some volley fire where all shooters concentrated on one target and let off 3 rounds. we had at least 50% hits at 600 yards. I'm betting that even just 3 AK shooters at 600 yards concentrating on a single target could provide a beaten zone of 4'x4' and anything in that zone would be quite dead. volley fire is something I hadnt considered before and was brought up by the WSSA president as something they had played with 'back in the day' it seems like an interesting concept and would further increase the effective range of a small squad of partisans equipped only with the humble AK.

    Imagine what a squad of partisan snipers or riflemen could do with some volley fire!!

    This is a concept that we should look into further. even at closer ranges, this "team tactic" could be an extrememly effective tool to ensure target destruction.
    Last edited by Jack-O; 01-07-2008 at 02:21 PM.

  10. #10
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    I have 20 rounds of Corbon 7.62x39 125 gr. JHP that was given to me at CRG in August.

    If you could just group it on paper and post the target here, that'd be great.


    PM me.

    ***

    I really like the concept of volley fire.

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