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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Occupied Alabama
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    186

    Default Interactive Gunfighting/Force on Force - Chattanooga TN Nov 3-4 w/ Randy Harris

    I took the Force-On-Force class w/ Randy Harris over the weekend. At first I wasn't doing as well as I had expected, but I quickly reasoned that in these scenarios you need to get shot some to learn what works and what doesn't.

    In these scenarios you have to be reactive to the Bad Guy's action which gives the BG the advantage. On some of the scenarios we made the BG (who is initiating) shoot a barrel behind the GG's starting position before he turned his muzzle at the GG for subsequent shots. This was supposed to simulate the OODA loop process as the BG probably wouldn't be expecting your counterattack, and in class the guy role playing the BG knows that you are going to counterattack. To keep the BG from anticipating your movement and drawing to where you will be instead of to where you were, Randy incorporated the first barrel shot.

    Randy had an excellent and convincing presentation on directional movement under various distances which I hope he shares at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference.

    We did some disarm techniques which some of the students occasionally managed to incorporate into the real close range scenarios.

    At two yards I think everyone got stabbed when the BG had the knife. At this close proximity the priority should be to move first, and draw second. I have ingrained the habit of drawing at the same time I move. At this distance that didn't work out as well as moving first. We discussed various techniques to help mitigate this distance problem.

    The area that is right outside what you can close to disarm or foul a draw before the BG processes your move seems to be the hardest to deal with.

    The drills with 2 or 3 BGs on 1 GG showed the importance of stacking the BGs, and the importance of situational awareness to keep yourself out of that scenario.

    A high percentage of shots I took were in the hands, arms or shoulders. It reinforced the thought that I must practice my support hand and single hand manipulations.

    In the last part of the class we did a bunch of role playing scenarios, which was very fun indeed. We often surprised ourselves in what we came up with while under pressure. In one home invasion scenario I grabbed a wooden stake which was laying on the ground and used it to keep a knife attacker at bay so I could engage his pistol armed buddy first.

    We did scenarios which required a lot of decision making under pressure with multiple things going on at once.

    Other glaring lessons for me included knowing the equipment's reliability before class. I had thought I had learned this lesson a long time ago but this should include airsoft equipment as well. It took a day to get my airsoft somewhat reliable.

    There were at least two scenarios where I was too slow in drawing my weapon. In one I heard my screen door open and close while in my house and I didn't immediately draw the pistol (what was I worried about, I was in my house!?!). The other I saw a BG put his hand on what I presumed to be a gun or knife and again waited for confirmation of what was in his hand before drawing. This tendancy could get me killed. Hopefully, this lesson is learned.

    The weekend's weather was good. By the second day everyone in class was working well together (even the Damn Yankee and the Doc's Limey Brit) and we were all having lots of fun. A very enlightening and enjoyable time was had in yet another class by the always thinking, always questioning and always helpful Randy Harris.

    Oh yea, my post-like thin profile still did not keep me from looking like I had the chicken pox when I got home. :o
    ------------------------------------------------
    "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."

    Psalms 37

    "A vulgar display of ability" - Tom Givens

    "Not bad for an Alabama boy" - Sonny Puzikas

    "You're like clearing a post, not a corner" - Randy Harris

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Scharfschutz
    At two yards I think everyone got stabbed when the BG had the knife. At this close proximity the priority should be to move first, and draw second. I have ingrained the habit of drawing at the same time I move. At this distance that didn't work out as well as moving first. We discussed various techniques to help mitigate this distance problem.
    When attacked with a knife, at any reasonable distance, get moving first then go for the gun. Against a gun, at any distance, move first then go for the gun.

    At 2 yards, forget the gun; it's a knife fight not a gun fight. Deal with the knife first, then go for the gun.

    The first time I did Interactive Gunfighting, at 2 yards I went straight into the attacker and shoulder blocked him. I assume that I got stabbed because I didn't do anything to counter the knife (I didn't have any idea what to do to block it). This last time I did IG, I was planning to try a Dogcatcher/HeadButt, but broke my arm before we got to 2 yards.

    See Die Less Often 1
    WA2WMR on QRZ.com
    ARRL Field Day 2012
    Hope is when you buy a lottery ticket.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Occupied Alabama
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    Quote Originally Posted by grnzbra
    This last time I did IG, I was planning to try a Dogcatcher/HeadButt, but broke my arm before we got to 2 yards.

    See Die Less Often 1
    Damn man. Sorry about your arm.

    I have DLO. I have noone to train with locally, so I have not tried much more than the false lead footwork displayed on my bag. I am attempting to remedy that situation.
    ------------------------------------------------
    "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."

    Psalms 37

    "A vulgar display of ability" - Tom Givens

    "Not bad for an Alabama boy" - Sonny Puzikas

    "You're like clearing a post, not a corner" - Randy Harris

  4. #4
    The reason I mention DLO is because it shows various students using the dog catcher to deal with a knife and all but one of them went to the gun before the followup head-butt. They found themselves involved in struggles of varying length which ended up with them eventually being stabbed. The one student who followed the dog catcher with the head-butt, dumped the knife guy on his tail, went out for coffee, picked up a newspaper, checked out the editorials and then drew his gun on the knife guy.

    When Crafty pointed out to the other students that they went to the gun too soon, they said something like, "I was trying to...". To which, Crafty kept responding, "You went to the gun too soon."
    WA2WMR on QRZ.com
    ARRL Field Day 2012
    Hope is when you buy a lottery ticket.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Chattanooga TN
    Posts
    3,489
    Thanks for the kind words Scharfschutz. I've been a little preoccupied the last few days.

    I really enjoyed teaching this class. Everyone worked hard and everyone appeared to have a good time-especially when we ran the scenarios. More importantly I think everyone took something away from it that they didn't have when they arrived. There is a big difference in range shooting and live interaction with moving, thinking adversaries that shoot back and try to stab you. And not EVERYONE is out to get you. Most people we come in contact with are not trying to rob rape or kill us. We have to work at recognizing those that are so we can avoid them or short circuit their plan.

    That is what this class does. It provides a laboratory to experiment with these things where failure does not mean injury or death....like it often does when it is real. It gives you a reference point where you recognize what it looks like when 2 (or 3) guys are manuevering on you and shows you just how imperative movement is at what distance. Like I said, I really enjoyed teaching this class and look forward to doing it again.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 11-08-2007 at 11:26 AM.
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
    NRA Certified Instructor
    Tennessee State Handgun Carry Permit Instructor
    Glock Factory Certified Armorer
    IDPA Master Class SSP, ESP,CDP, CCP, BUG, CO
    Gung Ho Chuan Association

    TRAIN with me....https://suarezinternational.com/sear...h_query=harris

    Fundamentalist Christian Man at Arms

    AKA - CRUEL HAND LUKE

    Joel 3:10 - Beat your plowshares into swords , and your pruning hooks into spears; train even your weaklings to be warriors.

    Through HIS power I can walk on water..IF I just have the faith and courage to get out of the boat.

    A good man who's done a couple of bad things along the way....

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    2
    I also took the Interactive Gunfighting/Force on Force in Chattanooga TN Nov 3-4. Here are some random thoughts and comments.

    First, let me say I enjoyed the class. It was a pleasure training with Randy Harris and meeting other folks with similiar mindset. It was apparent Randy has a passion for this. He has done quite a bit of research.

    Equipment - I carry 9mm Glocks so I used a KWA G19. It performed flawlessly. Bring at least two magazines. It allows more trigger time. While others were reloading, I was able to step up to the line. I used a Comp-Tac Holster, a cheap Fobus magazine pouch, and a 5.11 instructors belt. All worked well.

    Scharfschutz did a good job of describing the class so I will not repeat. Just some things I learned.

    Backing up does not work. At least one student fell down while backing up. In another scenario, I was trapped between two cars. When the BG began to draw his gun, I backed up while drawing my weapon. We both got shot. I should have advanced and fouled his draw.

    I too got shot a lot in the hands, forearms, and shoulders. Off hand and one hand manipulations should be practiced.

    On drills with multiple bad guys, you can stack with two and use the closest as non-compliant cover. With more then two BGs, it was like herding cats. No good way to do that.

    Randy showed us some disarm techniques. They are good to know, but just working them a few minutes in one class does not mean I know them. They will need to be practiced on live training partners repeatly until they are second nature.

    I think the most important thing I learned was to try and not get myself in a situation that would require using my weapon. Situational awareness is paramount. If a bad guy suprises you, you are already behind the curve. The only hope is to react in such a way as to upset his OODA loop. Acting agressively seems to work in that respect.

    Once again, thanks Randy for a great class.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Chattanooga TN
    Posts
    3,489
    No, thank you Stewart. I'm glad you enjoyed the class. You did really well. And you should have your certificate in the mail any day now.

    Stewart was actually able to consistently get off the X, redirect or control the BG's muzzle and get shots on the Bg when starting at 3 yards. Good show! Movement works. Obviously the better shape you are in the better it works, but I wish I had video of a couple of times he went.

    And that is a good point about the extra mag. Stewart was always ready to go again. The faster you can re-gas and re-load in this class the more opportunities you get to go. I think once or twice he was trying to be both the good guy and bad guy ....:D

    On the disarm stuff, you are correct. The 2 hours we dedicated to it was not enough to make anyone a "disarm master". But the real value is building confidence and showing you what CAN be done if you devote time and work to it and what to watch out for if YOU are holding someone at gunpoint.It also reinforces the dynamics of action vs reaction.

    Again, glad you enjoyed the class and I look forward to seeing you again in class sometime.
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor
    NRA Certified Instructor
    Tennessee State Handgun Carry Permit Instructor
    Glock Factory Certified Armorer
    IDPA Master Class SSP, ESP,CDP, CCP, BUG, CO
    Gung Ho Chuan Association

    TRAIN with me....https://suarezinternational.com/sear...h_query=harris

    Fundamentalist Christian Man at Arms

    AKA - CRUEL HAND LUKE

    Joel 3:10 - Beat your plowshares into swords , and your pruning hooks into spears; train even your weaklings to be warriors.

    Through HIS power I can walk on water..IF I just have the faith and courage to get out of the boat.

    A good man who's done a couple of bad things along the way....

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    4
    I hope to get down to Chattanooga in the Spring for a class or two. I'm in Kingsport, TN. I was wondering what airsoft guns anyone would recommend for these classes.

    Thanks....

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    2
    MrMichael,

    I recomend using a replica of what you carry.

    I used a copy of my carry guns. I carry Glocks (26, 19, 34) so I used a KWA G19 from Airsoft Atlanta. It work great, no problems what so ever. Get a gas gun with metal slide. I used my same holsters and magazine carriers I carry with. Also as I said earlier, get an extra mag.

    Hope this helps.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    4
    Thanks... yes its helps

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