Rifles - Moving and Shooting

[Cold War Scout]

If you are running for cover in a certain direction, and if your attacker has the time and the ammo, could he not simply just create a wall of lead that you would have to run into/through to get to your cover, thus quite possibly nailing you with one or more rounds?

[Al Lipscomb]

Lots of overlap between this and the move and shoot thread ( http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...t=17353&page=5 )

One of the issues is going to be how well has the attacker(s) set the ambush. If you are talking about taking fire from someone standing in a field as you were walking along then you have different options than if you are caught in the open against a well planned ambush executed by multiple shooters.

If the inital attack gives you the shooters position you might be tempted to drop to a shooting position and return fire. But what if the there are multiple shooters and the first guy is just there to stir the pot and drive you to ground? By taking away your dynamic movement and you not getting to solid cover they may be able to take you out.

[3corners]

With regards CWS' and Gabe's points, in a military style contact the visible enemy is not likely to be firing he will be moving and will be covered by his buddy this is the basic principle of pairs fire and manouevre "one foot on the ground"

As a guideline during this type of training the guy moving would repeat the mantra "I'm up he sees me, he sees me Im down" which takes under 3 secs, immediately on going to ground he would once again crawl laterally then open fire to cover his buddy who repeated the procedure, prior to the next bound the cover man would shift position again so he did not get up from where he'd been firing from.

These tactics were for advancing on an enemy position after taking fire and would also be covered by the section support weapon which would deploy to put down suppressive fire on the enemy position from a flank.

In a rural environment it is unlikely that an enemy would "pop up and shoot" as they would normally be in concealed position covering their arcs and then merely open fire once the approaching targets were in their kill zone. However in an urban environment there may well be situations where hostiles "pop up" from round a corner etc and open fire as is seen a lot in Iraq! Bearing in mind that such tactics will not allow the hostile to put down aimed fire initially, good patrol skills may well enable us to take out the hostile without drastic movement.

To translate this to a possible civilian type encounter obviously depends on a variety of factors firstly are you alone or do you have a buddy that can cover your movement? then in what type of terrain are you operating and what is your "mission"?

So in essence we need to train all 3 of Gabe's options
1 - for when we are moving through an urban / CQB environment and a tgt appears in our sights
2 - as CWS pointed out if a good tactical postion is immediately available and moving would expose us to fire and we have located the enemy
3 - In a rural environment or a longer range urban environment where the enemy is not immediately visible.

There is one other tactic that has not been mentioned that of anti-ambush where the ONLY option may be to assault straight at the enemy position while firing, as that is usually the only way out of the killing zone of a prepared ambush (if your still alive) as any infantry man will tell you!

hope this adds some more food for thought :)

Stay Safe

Jim

[Gabe Suarez]

What I am looking at is simply that if we have discovered some very valid info with regards to pistol fights, and if fights truly are the same accross the board, only difference being reach angles and weapons, how do we modernize the rifle disciplines?

Clearly the majority of training involves popping into a shooting pose and shooting, or dropping into a supported camp perry pose and shooting. Again, always assuming there is nothing coming back and that you will have the initiative.

Ambushes suck, but they are still possible in any fight with any weapon. So with that in mind, you begin taking fire. Now what?

Much of your success or failure will depend on how you've positioned yourself before the fight, ie, staying off the ridges and crests of hills, not walking down the middle of the street, staying out of the light, etc.

If you've done this, you may have something nearby you can move to quickly.

Again, advancing the art is the goal.

[Al Lipscomb]

If you are running for cover in a certain direction, and if your attacker has the time and the ammo, could he not simply just create a wall of lead that you would have to run into/through to get to your cover, thus quite possibly nailing you with one or more rounds?

That sounds like what Bel posted on the other thread about having things covered. If your options for cover were very limited then they might count on you driving hard for position there and leaving yourself open to a second shooter.

Even snipers can have a support person.

[The Searcher]

Cover is wonderful if you are close enough to it to get to it without being hit and you don't have to look for it while being shot at. Being two steps from cover rather than 20 yards away makes running for cover a lot more attractive option.

So, it seems that the first item is to make sure that cover is always nearby.

If things are bad enough that you are walking around loaded for bear with a rifle, you should either be at least partially covered, near cover, or at a bare minimum know exactly where you will go if you come under fire.

We also need to realize that if we've stumbled into ambush, a skilled enemy might well have arrainged things so that the close by cover is itself "covered" by his fire or even some sort of booby trap.

The likely quality and quantity of your opponents and whether you are part of a team also comes into play.

[Cold War Scout]

Much of your success or failure will depend on how you've positioned yourself before the fight, ie, staying off the ridges and crests of hills, not walking down the middle of the street, staying out of the light, etc.

While frequently this is easier said than done, I found during my 6-years in the Army that you can actually start getting kind of good at this, even during movement. You actually develop a more tactical mindset that can be a step or two ahead in the "where is the best immediate cover, and where is my next cover going to be" game. Being able to put yourself in your adversary's shoes is also invaluable. "If I wanted to nail me, what would I do?"

[Gabe Suarez]

Agreed, and it brings to mind how we operated when moving through housing projects and other inner city real estate areas.

However, to say our tactics will always give us the edge is optimistic. The Alegrians in the youtube segment clearly had heads-in-rectal interface going on.

Notice how some got hit immediately. If that happens, Oh Well. No technique for that. However, notice the ractions of some of the others who got off the road immediately. That is what I am looking at.

You know you are getting fired at
You know it is aimed at you
You have no idea where it is coming from

That is different than seeing a BG stick his head up over a wall and peer at you.

[Cold War Scout]

I believe we are all in agreement about getting off the X, and preferably to cover (we of course realize that cover may not exist). The only remaining question is how best to do so. Do we seek the immediacy of less than stellar cover (a telephone pole) rather than seek the better (a wall) yet more distant to reach cover? Do we seek better cover that offers no escape options once there, or go for something less desirable as cover yet is a springboard to something better?

There is a true story of some Colombian CTI agents who responded to an anonymous report of a narcotics operation at a farmhouse. When they got to the farm there was nobody/nothing there (should have been clue #1). While returning, and in an ideal ambush location (which they made easier with bunched cars), they were ambushed. 17 agents were killed that day. The only survivors that day were those who attacked the ambushers "tooth and nail" with their handguns, taking bullets along the way, and ran over/through the ambushers. Those who jumped into a ditch on the side of the road after the initial volley of fire against them, survived for a short period of time...until the attackers overwhelming firepower and position eventually got them.

[Al Lipscomb]

Cover has to work to help prevent you from getting shot without preventing you from shooting the attacker?

It was pointed out in another thread that "hunkering down" for too long will just get you flanked and shot.