Red Dot School for $100
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  1. #41
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    Default I hope this proves useful as well...

    The following loads were tested by Dr. Gary Roberts using calibrated 10% ballistic gel:

    .30-30 Federal 125 gr JHP (#3030C)
    velocity: 2425 fps
    penetration: 15.7"
    expansion: 0.54"
    recovered weight: 87.8 gr

    .30-30 Winchester 150 gr JSP Silvertip (#X30302)
    velocity: 2211 fps
    penetration: 18.9"
    expansion: 0.57"
    recovered weight: 125.8 gr

    .30-30 Winchester 170 gr Power Point (#X30303)
    velocity: 2036 fps
    penetration: 20.5"+
    expansion: 0.62"
    recovered weight: 158.0 gr

    * Note the 30-30 loads mentioned above were fired from a 16" barrel Marlin carbine, not the 20" rifle.

    .44 Magnum Speer Gold Dot JSP 270 gr (#23968)
    -Fired from a 16" carbine
    velocity: 1418 fps
    penetration: 20"+
    expansion: 0.74"
    recovered weight: 269.5 gr

    .45-70 Winchester 300 gr JSP Nosler Partition Gold (#SPG4570)
    velocity: 1733 fps
    penetration: 29.9"
    expansion: 0.78"
    recovered weight: 294 gr

    .30-06 Federal 180 gr TBBC (#P3006T3)
    velocity: 2942 fps!!! (high energy load)
    penetration: 20"+
    expansion: 0.60"
    recovered weight: 177.6 gr

    .30-06 Winchester 180 gr Nosler Partition Gold
    velocity: 2830 fps
    penetration: 20"+
    expansion: 0.59"
    recovered weight: 140.6

    .30 Carbine Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR)
    velocity: 1864 fps
    penetration: 16.5"
    expansion: 0.54"
    recovered weight: 95.9 gr

    7.62X39mm Winchester 123 gr JSP (X76239)
    velocity: 2253 fps
    penetration: 14.4"
    expansion: 0.56"
    recovered weight: 90.1 gr

    7.62x39mm Lapua 125 gr Mega Spire Point
    velocity: 2316 fps
    penetration: 17.3"
    expansion: 0.62"
    recovered weight: 122.6 gr
    -This round also offers excellent performance through a windshield barrier as well.

    .223 Black Hills 68 gr BTHP Match
    velocity: 2615 fps
    penetration: 12.1"
    temporary cavity max diamater: 9.0cm
    recovered diameter: 0.39"
    recovered weight: 31.5 gr
    fragmentation: 53.6%

    .223 Federal 69 gr BTHP Match
    velocity: 2646 fps
    penetration: 14.7"
    temporary cavity max diameter: 10.0cm
    recovered diameter: 0.40"
    recovered weight: 27.5 gr
    fragmentation: 60.2%

    .223 Winchester 69 gr BTHP Match
    velocity: 2758 fps
    penetration: 11.9"
    temporary cavity max diameter: 8.5cm
    recovered diameter: 0.36"
    recovered weight: 17.5 gr
    fragmentation: 74.6%

    * The above .223 results were fired from a 1/7 twist 16" barrel carbine into bare gel at a distance of 10 ft from the muzzle.

    12 Gauge Brenneke 1 oz slug (from an 18" barrel)
    velocity: 1331 fps
    penetration: 20"
    expansion: 0.88"
    recovered weight: 433.5 gr


    the following rounds all meet the FBI's requirement for at least 12" of penetration in gel/soft tissue and will robustly expand (or fragment as is the case with some of the rifle ammo) even when passing through clothing:

    9mm
    -Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ JHP
    -Winchester Ranger 147 gr JHP
    -Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
    -Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP
    -Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP
    -Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP

    .40 S&W
    -Winchester Ranger 180 gr JHP
    -Winchester Ranger 165 gr JHP
    -Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
    -Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP
    -Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP

    .45 ACP
    -Winchester Ranger 230 gr JHP
    -Winchester Ranger 230 gr +P JHP
    -Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP
    -Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP

    .357 Sig
    -Winchester Ranger 125 gr JHP
    -Speer Gold Dot 125 gr JHP

    .223
    -Black Hills or Hornady 75 gr OTM
    -Black Hills or Federal 77 gr OTM
    -Black Hills or Federal 69 gr OTM
    -Black Hills 68 gr OTM
    -Winchester Supreme Power Point Plus 64 gr JSP
    -Federal 55 and 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (these also penetrate deeply, even through barriers so be careful where you employ these rounds)
    -Black Hills 60 gr SP

    .308
    -Hornady 155 gr TAP (with AMAX bullet)
    -Federal 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
    -Winchester Supreme 150 gr Ballistic Silvertip
    -Loads using the 165 gr Sierra Game King

    7.62X39mm
    -Lapua 125 gr JSP
    -Winchester Super-X 123 gr Power-Point

    .30 Carbine
    -Remington 110 gr JSP

    12 Gauge
    -Most any 00 or 000 buckshot loads will provide necessary penetration. However some may pattern better than others. The Federal Tactical 00 Buckshot is often a favorite.


    Quote Originally Posted by Troy from AR15.com
    1. The cannalure and crimp isn't because the bullets will have set-back under recoil, 'cause there just isn't much recoil in an AR. The problem is in chambering the round, which is fairly violent in an AR. The problem is much further compounded if you chamber the same round more than once, as is often the case with soldiers and police on daily patrol shifts (and affects pistol ammo as well). This is where a solid crimp on a good cannalure makes all the difference.

    2. Wolf and Barnaul hollowpoints don't expand in tissue simulant (ballistic gelatin). Their jackets are too thick, and the lead core doesn't line the walls of the hollowpoint cavity as is needed for an effective *expanding* hollowpoint. The only benefit is that they yaw a bit faster due to the center of gravity being even further back than on a FMJ.

    As far as the V-Max bullets, there are a couple of problems. The deeper rifling cuts on Russian guns really need a .311 bullet instead of a .308 bullet to get a good gas seal. Plus, the 110gr bullet won't give you enough penetration, and the 7.62x39 case can't get the 150gr bullets up to the required velocities.

    The best ammo in this caliber is the Lapua softpoints, followed by the Winchester Power-Points.

    -Troy
    Quote Originally Posted by Troy from AR15.com
    1/21/06
    Re: Corbon 7.62x39 JHP
    The Corbon 7.62x39 loads have been tested, and did not meet IWBA or FBI requirements.

    -Troy
    Section1

    "If war is ever lawful, then peace is sometimes sinful."

    C.S. Lewis

    "Me? I think all of that is a load of gun school crap. I train and teach to shoot them to the ground. Beginning at the chest I shoot a burst to the chest and run the line up til I get to the face. Winning their hearts and minds....Suarez style."


    Gabe Suarez

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by LMGBeliever
    Have seen a bunch of KIA and WIA on both sides from these calibers, so here goes. 5.56mm in the 20 inch m16A4, is a decent manstopper in the hollowpoint variety (blackhills 77 grain) it would fragment, and is the round of choice for a lot of us. Sweet. Stopping power is reduced from the m4, but mostly at longer ranges is the m4 less effective. Moral of the story, tailor your weapon to your mission, it's easy. The "green tip" 5.56mm sucks, period. Guys soak it up and can survive. I have seen headshots, through the eye, that didn't kill people.

    My short answer to this whole process would be, use good ammo, only solid hits count, and tailor your weapon to your mission.
    Good post ! I think the "problems" regarding 5.56mm stem from use of "green tip" M855 rounds fired out of 14.5 inch 1:7 twist barrels. That round was developed to penetrate metal Soviet helmets at 500 yards. M193 works much better in tissue and is my round of choice for the AR (but it has gotten very hard to get now).

    Any one else with direct observations regarding the anti-personnel effects of these rounds ?
    Last edited by ccwinmemphis; 10-16-2006 at 08:35 PM.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
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    382
    Just noticed this: http://www.grafs.com/ammo/product/21182

    Interesting...Winchester brass cases, loaded with 123gr. Hornady V-Max bullets - could this be the "AK-T.A.P." ammo we've been waiting for? Best part is, @ $.50/rd, it's well within the same price range as premium handgun HP ammo.

    Also found: http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/B...45x39_FMJ.html

    I know that Sonny and Paul pretty much issued a blanket condemnation of all commercially-available surplus 5.45X39 in the US(Wolf not consistent, 7N6 too ricochet-prone), but could this Bulgarian stuff be any different/better?

  4. #44
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    Oct 2003
    Location
    Metro Detroit, MI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kor
    Just noticed this: http://www.grafs.com/ammo/product/21182

    Interesting...Winchester brass cases, loaded with 123gr. Hornady V-Max bullets - could this be the "AK-T.A.P." ammo we've been waiting for? Best part is, @ $.50/rd, it's well within the same price range as premium handgun HP ammo.

    Also found: http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/B...45x39_FMJ.html

    I know that Sonny and Paul pretty much issued a blanket condemnation of all commercially-available surplus 5.45X39 in the US(Wolf not consistent, 7N6 too ricochet-prone), but could this Bulgarian stuff be any different/better?
    The 7.62x39 V-Max was one that Dr. Robert's was supposed to have tested in the latest evaluations. Results should be forth coming soon.

    Your referenced "WASP" should perform like the 7N6 - think about the "Nickname" it has.
    Section1

    "If war is ever lawful, then peace is sometimes sinful."

    C.S. Lewis

    "Me? I think all of that is a load of gun school crap. I train and teach to shoot them to the ground. Beginning at the chest I shoot a burst to the chest and run the line up til I get to the face. Winning their hearts and minds....Suarez style."


    Gabe Suarez

  5. #45
    Al Lipscomb Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by motley1
    AL,
    The round I was talking about is the Winchester Ranger 55gr ballistic silver tip. If you look at permanent cavity, versus temporary cavity disruption that is where you see the difference. The reason a FMJ bullet causes so little damage is because the human body is so elastic. The bullet can spin, yaw and twist, it does not make a difference. Even someone shot in the heart can still fight for a short period of time. Organs are elastic as well. You need the round to fragment and stay in the body. The more the bullet fragments the greater the permanent wound cavity it will cause. Those little fragments are like little razors cutting everything in its path. It applies to head shot trauma to the brain and CNS as well.
    The elastic quality of tissue has its limits. For the 5.56 round the fragmentation of the bullet is critical in converting temporary cavity (streach) into permenant cavity. Other rounds are not as dependent on fragmentation as they are capable of making a larger permenant cavity as they tear tissue as they create more streach. The NATO 7.62 is an example of such a round.


    Quote Originally Posted by motley1
    Just because a round might leave a big exit wound as it leaves the body, the bad guy then has to bleed out and can still fight. The job needs to take place in the body to shut someone down the quickest.
    Other than a direct CNS hit or the destruction of a major support structure, bleed out is the only other way to shut someone down.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    0
    One thing not mentioned in all this discussion of "temporary cavitation" is the fact that different tissues have differing degrees of elasticity. The liver tends not to stretch, muscle does. So when you are using Fackler's photos and data (which I do, too, in a lecture I give paramedics), just remember that even it has some assumptions and limitations.

  7. #47
    Al Lipscomb Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by bama
    One thing not mentioned in all this discussion of "temporary cavitation" is the fact that different tissues have differing degrees of elasticity. The liver tends not to stretch, muscle does.
    I think the idea is to present the "worst case" (or best case if you are the one getting shot) and move up from there. Hitting the liver, a full bladder or a major bone will change the outcome somewhat.

  8. #48
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    Oct 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by bama
    One thing not mentioned in all this discussion of "temporary cavitation" is the fact that different tissues have differing degrees of elasticity. The liver tends not to stretch, muscle does. So when you are using Fackler's photos and data (which I do, too, in a lecture I give paramedics), just remember that even it has some assumptions and limitations.
    Agreed Doc!!!

    And, for those that may not have mastered reading comprehension or are prone to minutia debate; 10% ballistics gelatin is used as test median which provides a repeatable way of testing potential projectile design functions and wounding. (This is the only scientifically approved and viable option thus far for such research.)

    The properly calibrated 10% ballistics gelatin does a good job of simulating the properties of muscle tissue and shows a high level of correlation to actual necropsy results. Notably, since the human body (animal) isn't 100% muscle tissue there are some things no measured and that's why other testing with barriers etc. are conducted.
    Section1

    "If war is ever lawful, then peace is sometimes sinful."

    C.S. Lewis

    "Me? I think all of that is a load of gun school crap. I train and teach to shoot them to the ground. Beginning at the chest I shoot a burst to the chest and run the line up til I get to the face. Winning their hearts and minds....Suarez style."


    Gabe Suarez

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    626
    First up, we have sectioned rounds of Soviet Armor Piercing Incendiary, M43 steel core FMJ, Soviet tracer, Syrian lead core FMJ, Egyptian tracer, FMJ & blank. The number two round is the ammunition most used in Vietnam and the one that Fackler's comments apply to.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    626
    Here's an assortment of Russian FMJs:

    Uly 8M1 'nipple' type

    Klimovsk

    Klimovsk

    Wolf

    Barnual

    Uly 8M2 FMJ

    early Klimovsk with 150gr bullet

    Notice the significant differences in design, even though, ostensibly they are all lead core, copper jacketed rounds.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Paul Gomez; 10-17-2006 at 04:01 PM.

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