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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by georgel
    Meanwhile, I'm still investing in the AR platform.:D
    with proper ammo selection, your AR can go a long way. 75gr OTM or if you can get your hands on the Federal bonded ammmo.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    The Republic of Pirates
    Quote Originally Posted by SMGLee
    .............but if I am given the opportunity to select exact what i can carry to a fight, I would pick a 14inch M4 system with 6.8OTM. .....................If you want ultimate performance, then get a gas piston upper from LWRC in 6.8.................with the possibilities of HK releasing the 416 and the 417 anfd also the 418 in 6.8, and also FN SCAR-L which will also carry the 6.8, you can have your cake and eat it too.
    And how much would that "delicious piece of pastry chef masterpiece" cost us mere mortals with mortgages, etc.

    I know all about the "what is your life worth" discussion, but a line must be drawn somewhere...after all, if we do not put a price tag on it, why not simply hire a three man operator cell made up of former Spetsnaz, Delta types to follow you around for the rest of your life.

    It would costly, yes...but what is your life worth? Not trying to be contentious, just practical.;)
    Gabe Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #13
    Al Lipscomb Guest
    Truth be told that is why I have an AK and not an AR today. I selected roles for different firearms and am trying to fill them as the funds become available. The defensive automatic was filled by an AK as the role it was to fill was satisfied and I had the cash for it long before I could get near a decent AR.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    How much larger does the monetary gap get when it takes four of whatever you pick to equip the family.
    "Many men are able, most aren't willing"
    J.B. Books

  5. #15
    John Chambers is offline Suarez International Staff Instructor - Retired
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Round Rock, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes
    How much larger does the monetary gap get when it takes four of whatever you pick to equip the family.
    EXACTLY!!! I can equip myself, my wife and my 2 kids with AKs for the price of 1(!) high end AR system. And you get all the advantages of the AK. "Quantity has a Quality of its own..." :D


    "So I have to take my beret from my head, and put it in my heart. I'm not going to put it back on until the enemy has them by the throat. Not until I'm fighting for the Constitution of the United States of America."

    To Train with John Chambers: CLICK HERE!

    HRO-5: Terrorist / Active Shooter Interdiction - 1/23-24/2016

    CRG-3: Advanced Gunfighting - 4/2-3/2016

    RGF-3: Advanced Rifle Gunfighting - 5/21-22/2016

    HRO-2: Rural Patrolling II - 10/1-2/2016

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by p17Enfield
    EXACTLY!!! I can equip myself, my wife and my 2 kids with AKs for the price of 1(!) high end AR system. And you get all the advantages of the AK. "Quantity has a Quality of its own..." :D
    That's why I haven't gotten rid of my SKS. It's not close to an AK, but for the $150 I paid for it (+$50 for tech-sights), I can't replace it with anything comparable. It's a cheap spare that I know goes "bang" every time.

  7. #17
    Al Lipscomb Guest
    If you are going to compare the systems you have to have some way to define "better". The AR is not a bad weapon, to get to the servicable level you do have to spend a little more money than to get to the same level as the AK.

    From zero to around 200 meters the AK holds the edge for me in the non-military role. Out past 200 meters the AR starts to have some advantage, but the role changes. The AR in a 6.8 configuration is whole different thing as well.

    For the AK the Winchester ammo is good enough and I can get it at Wall-Mart. It is not as accurate as the Black Hills OTM offerings, but for what I need it to do, it works.

    I wonder if the SCAR is going to start a migration back to 7.62 being the round of choice for the troops? But that is a different thread.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    This is My first post but looked like a good one to jump into. I have seen several people shot with 16 inch AR's and short barreled HK-53's. The shootings were all close in distance, no long range shots. A good hollow point was used, no FMJ's. The effects were devastating and fight stopping. Several of the parties were high on meth and shooting back when shot. The .223 rounds fragmented and destroyed the internal organs making mush out of them. The autopsy photos are impressive. The bad guys were shut down and got off no further rounds at the good guys. The rounds did not over penetrate and stayed in the body. In fact all of the .223 shootings we have had the rounds have performed great with no over penetration.
    On the flip side I have seen several people shot with Wolf 7.62 HP and FMJ. The SKS rifle seems to be the current rifle of choice being carried by Gang Bangers in my neck of the woods. The 7.62 rounds seem to over penetrate and do not cause the traumatic wounding effect that the .223 does. The rounds very seldom break up and remain in tact and pass through the body. I know that shot placement is still key even with a rifle. Nothing beats a head shot if you need to shut someone down. We have all heard of people getting shot in the heart and still being able to fight for several seconds. That is long enough for them to return fire or cut you with a knife. I can only share with you my experiences on the street. I am by no means a ballistic expert. I think the .223 round is great in urban/CQB environments.
    The .223 and 7.62 AK rounds were by nature not designed for long distance fighting. The reality is that most combat takes place in urban/CQB environments in the U.S. The AR/M16 Do a great job. I do not see why anything shorter than a 16 inch barrel is needed. I would rather have a little longer barrel with better ballistic capability. If you ever see someone holding a handgun in gun point or high ready position and someone holding a 16 inch AR in the gun point or high ready position, you will see that the over all length to the muzzle of each weapon is about the same.
    This is why I was excited to see that Arsenal USA is making the AK-106 in .223. I have long been a fan of the AK platform. A good quality .223 hollow point is cheaper to buy than a good quality 7.62/39 hollow point. The cost of cheap training ammo would allow you to shoot the wolf .223 ammo out of the AK-106. I still would not recommend shooting wolf out of an AR/M16. I'm sure that a good quality 7.62/39 hunting round would also cause a lot of wound trauma. I still would worry that over penetration might be a problem. Again just my two and a half cents.


  9. #19
    Al Lipscomb Guest
    What round are you talking about for the .223, Open Tip Match (OTM)?

    Read the first two posts by Gabe and it may help you understand that the bullets work in different ways. The 5.57 will yaw (turn from point forward to point rearward) and if moving fast enough will break in half. Once the bullet breaks the fragments contribute to the tearing of the flesh that has been streached into the temporary cavity. You don't have an intact bullet to exit. The round can produce an impressive exit wound as the fragements exit and the tissue tears.

    The 7.62x39 does not fragment as it yaws. The larger bullet does most of its damage as it completes its yaw inside the body and exits point rearward. It is not as impressive a wound, but lethal.

    We have had good results with the 5.57 in local shootings but it has limitations.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    THe more I read , the more I wish for the old loadings in the 223 and the first issue M16, I know they worked and the bullet we where told was designed to yaw and spin out close to 200 meters..

    But still if I had my druthers and had to carry a MBR again 30cal would make me feel better
    All animals except man know that the ultimate of life is to enjoy it.

    Samuel Butler


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