Ballistics - Involving the AK

[doro19]

lets not kid ourselves guys. if you take your AK and ball ammo to a fight, you are outgunned already. we are private citizens and are capable of purchasing the best quality bullets available for our cartridges. M80 ball is junk compared to a finely handloaded 168gr HPBT in your best bolt rifle or deadly VMAX in your 5.56 compared to M855.
the circumstances in which i imagine an actual firefight or guerrilla warfare seldom involve CQB with rifles. im pretty sure we would all much rather sit behind a bolt gun than go toe to toe with multiple armed enemies. its a game of odds that a guerrilla will eventually lose.
that being said, i would not want to use my stocks of FMJ 7.62x39 unless dire times were afoot.

Chad- i agree with SPRQ476 in that the 7.62 is hardly devastating. would we call a .30-30 devastating?
American Infidel- i agree with you 100%. some folks have a bond to a certain cartridge/weapon system that goes beyond the reasonable. everything is a compromise and we have to realize that. if i were in the circumstances right at this second where i had to go kill, the only thing in my proximity is an M91/30 sniper rifle on the wall and the glock on the desk next to me. gotta use what you got.

that being said, if i woke up tomorrow to a foreign occupier, i would leave the AK at home and go hunting with my 308 after making her a little quieter. the thing is, i know we all love the AK, and im a ballsy guy, but forget me going to war in a way i do not believe will be conductive to my survival and that of my cause.

I not buying that. During the nineties my unit was involved with a task force that was investigating a terrible war between two drug gangs in Philly. The weapons of choice were AK's , SKS's, and Ar 15s. They were not using super duper advanced organ seeking exploding ammunition from corbon, federal, speer, or any other American manufacturer. They were using cheap ass eastern block and chinese suplus 7.62x39 and surplus military 5.56. I was investigated a lot of crime scenes, attended numerous autopsies to obtain the ballistic evidence, and saw the devasting damage that this 'crap' ammo did, most of the shootings that took place were up close and personal! I recall seeing the autopsy of one " victem" drug rival that was shot with chinese made 'crap' and his insides looked like meat smoothie. He received a 7.62 round in his gun hand (he was shooting back) and his arm looked like someone put it a meat grinder. The round tumbled exited his bicep and entered his chest with enough energy to destroy his heart. Outgunned? Give me a break.

[barnetmill]

One of the things I absorbed from classes and discussions over the last 10-12 years I'm now starting to wonder about.

I had gotten this idea that also what you *need* at 25 yards is different than what you need at 250. I think in some cases this is true. In a home defense environment (post catastrophe, out on a ranch somewhere) at 25 yards you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY need to root that guy to the ground RIGHT NOW. Massive trauma and CNS shots do this, but at 25 yards the guy you're shooting is also VERY motivated to press his attack.

At 250 yards--for the "civilian" defensive purposes, maybe just a through and through is ok, maybe not. I suspect that if you shoot a looter or opportunist at 200 yards with an AR he'll probably go somewhere else, if he can, so 5.45/5.56 with a short barrel, or a PCC will definately dissuade if that is the sorts of threats you worry about. .....

I had another thought about how hard it could be to stop a looter or other criminal. Crinimals often have substance abuse problems. I do not know for Katrina, but I am assuming one of the first things to get looted after the liquor stores would be drug stores and some looters could be very high. Depending on the drug(s) ingested/injected/snorted the drugged up looter may not feel pain and be extremely aggressive. So what I am saying is that it is possible a wounded looter might continue to fight until they bleed out and not use better judgement and flee after being wounded. For a lot of reasons an AK assault rifle is my first rifle choice for SD. Perhaps for distance shooting the new 6.5 caliber that people have been discussing is the way to go.

[Skeleton In The Closet]

I not buying that. During the nineties my unit was involved with a task force that was investigating a terrible war between two drug gangs in Philly. The weapons of choice were AK's , SKS's, and Ar 15s. They were not using super duper advanced organ seeking exploding ammunition from corbon, federal, speer, or any other American manufacturer. They were using cheap ass eastern block and chinese suplus 7.62x39 and surplus military 5.56. I was investigated a lot of crime scenes, attended numerous autopsies to obtain the ballistic evidence, and saw the devasting damage that this 'crap' ammo did, most of the shootings that took place were up close and personal! I recall seeing the autopsy of one " victem" drug rival that was shot with chinese made 'crap' and his insides looked like meat smoothie. He received a 7.62 round in his gun hand (he was shooting back) and his arm looked like someone put it a meat grinder. The round tumbled exited his bicep and entered his chest with enough energy to destroy his heart. Outgunned? Give me a break.

alright bro. you can stick with the surplus and ill stick with my HPBTs. fair enough.

[doro19]

alright bro. you can stick with the surplus and ill stick with my HPBTs. fair enough.

Who said I use surplus? I just think it's funny to say one is "outgunned" if that's all they have... "Alright men, intelligence just came back on the guerillas and they're using military ball surplus ammo. They don't realize we're packing Corbon - poor outgunned bastards!" Still not buying it.

[Skeleton In The Closet]

Who said I use surplus? I just think it's funny to say one is "outgunned" if that's all they have... "Alright men, intelligence just came back on the guerillas and they're using military ball surplus ammo. They don't realize we're packing Corbon - poor outgunned bastards!" Still not buying it.

nobodys saying you have to. nobody is saying that FMJ ball is bad. what im saying is that if i were to go about performing offensive actions against armed enemies, i would not take something inferior to the fight. surplus ball is fine, but not to me. let me ask you, do you carry FMJs in your pistol? hell im sure they kill lots of people, so why not?

come prepared or prepare to meet your maker. better bullets are paramount to the fight. a quality rifle firing the highest quality ammo will perform as advertised. so yeah, ill stick with my HPBTs and hollowpoints in rifle and pistol. geneva convention does not apply here.

nobody is saying you have to buy it, bro. you do yours and ill do mine.

[doro19]

I'm yanking your tail, Josh. I know what you mean, Brother. God bless you, and continue the the path of the Christian warrior.

[Gabe Suarez]

My comments in bold

I had gotten this idea that also what you *need* at 25 yards is different than what you need at 250. I think in some cases this is true. In a home defense environment (post catastrophe, out on a ranch somewhere) at 25 yards you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY need to root that guy to the ground RIGHT NOW. Massive trauma and CNS shots do this, but at 25 yards the guy you're shooting is also VERY motivated to press his attack.

Lets rephrase that. What works best at 25 yards may not work well at 250 yards. better?

At 250 yards--for the "civilian" defensive purposes, maybe just a through and through is ok, maybe not.

Rifles are not for "civilians". Rifles are not "defensive". Rifles are for forcing others, through projected violence, to do as you wish regardless of who pays you...or who pays them.

I suspect that if you shoot a looter or opportunist at 200 yards with an AR he'll probably go somewhere else, if he can, so 5.45/5.56 with a short barrel, or a PCC will definately dissuade if that is the sorts of threats you worry about.

That depends on how motivated he/they are.

In a military situation it may be different--as I understand it (having had almost no infantry training since the mid-80s and very little then) the main job of the rifleman (M16/M4) in open terrain (outside MOUT) is to keep the op4s pinned down until the 240 (249? The .308. In my time it was the M60) can get to them. Military folks also (generally) have more training and support.

I suggest the threads on guerrillas and rifles. I think the moment we tag on the adjectives "civilian" and 'defense" we lose sight of the nature of the rifle and what it is for.

.

[BillyOblivion]

My comments in bold

Grrr. Won't requote.

I had gotten this idea that also what you *need* at 25 yards is different than what you need at 250. I think in some cases this is true. In a home defense environment (post catastrophe, out on a ranch somewhere) at 25 yards you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY need to root that guy to the ground RIGHT NOW. Massive trauma and CNS shots do this, but at 25 yards the guy you're shooting is also VERY motivated to press his attack.

Lets rephrase that. What works best at 25 yards may not work well at 250 yards. better?

Sorry, not disagreeing, just thinking "out loud"--it's the concept. I was/am re-thinking something that was a bit of an axiom for me--that distance==time, that at 10 or 20 yards you don't have the luxury of bleeding the guy out, but as the distance increases you can afford to be less immediately overwhelming.

I don't know if that's really true. The assumption was formed years ago in discussions with folks who had a lot of experience with firearms, but not always in a martial environment, and with no real exposure to combat. 10 years later "we" have a lot more datapoints with modern weapons in modern conflicts. So I'm having a rethink. I did it publically because someone could then point out what I'm missing. It's like you say "That depends on how motivated he/they are". But this plays directly into which tools you pick to train with and have ready to deploy.

And yes, I get it about rifles and enforcing your will. That is why there were scare quotes around civilian. Bad choice of words on my part.

[ABUKAI08]

Well the fact of the matter is bullets do damage when they meet flesh. It's not too much of an issue whether it's 5.56 or 7.62. When you start moving up in the calibers then we are talking. .308 will knock you down with a purpose, but with the debate being between the standard calibers of (what I am assuming we are talking about is the AR and AK) platforms they both have strengths and weaknesses. 7.62 has a good amount of kick at medium ranges, but overpenetrate for some desired scenarios. If it's not an issue then go ahead and use 7.62 to turn the badguys' cover into concealment. Neither one of them is gauranteed one shot one kill though. I've shot bad guys with one round and turned the lights out and I've put 10 rounds through a guy that was still standing (thank god my buddies in the stack also shot him about 10 times each upon entering the haji house). Either platform will get the job done. The issue should be follow up shots. Make their medic work for it. We all know 5.56 is like shooting a BB gun making follow up shots into second nature, but 7.62 isn't an a** kicker either when you add a little M-A-N into the equation. They both do the trick which is why both of them are in use today. I prefer 5.56 because it was the round I used to arrange meetings between bad guys and their 72 virgins, but I have no doubt in my mind that if I had used 7.62 those meetings would have still taken place. It's a good topic though. Not sure all the ballistic info justifies the effectiveness of the round though. .22 LR can kill just as good. Ballistics gel is good for an image or understanding , but "magic bullets" change everything. Just know your system and use it in such a manner that allows you to continue to breath after stopping your enemy from doing the latter.

The basic concept differs wherever you are. Always remember "Know your target and what is behind it" - John Everymarine. Let the good lord above decide which round worked better and just move on to your next target.

[doro19]

well the fact of the matter is bullets do damage when they meet flesh. It's not too much of an issue whether it's 5.56 or 7.62. When you start moving up in the calibers then we are talking. .308 will knock you down with a purpose, but with the debate being between the standard calibers of (what i am assuming we are talking about is the ar and ak) platforms they both have strengths and weaknesses. 7.62 has a good amount of kick at medium ranges, but overpenetrate for some desired scenarios. If it's not an issue then go ahead and use 7.62 to turn the badguys' cover into concealment. Neither one of them is gauranteed one shot one kill though. I've shot bad guys with one round and turned the lights out and i've put 10 rounds through a guy that was still standing (thank god my buddies in the stack also shot him about 10 times each upon entering the haji house). Either platform will get the job done. The issue should be follow up shots. Make their medic work for it. We all know 5.56 is like shooting a bb gun making follow up shots into second nature, but 7.62 isn't an a** kicker either when you add a little m-a-n into the equation. They both do the trick which is why both of them are in use today. I prefer 5.56 because it was the round i used to arrange meetings between bad guys and their 72 virgins, but i have no doubt in my mind that if i had used 7.62 those meetings would have still taken place. It's a good topic though. Not sure all the ballistic info justifies the effectiveness of the round though. .22 lr can kill just as good. Ballistics gel is good for an image or understanding , but "magic bullets" change everything. Just know your system and use it in such a manner that allows you to continue to breath after stopping your enemy from doing the latter.

The basic concept differs wherever you are. Always remember "know your target and what is behind it" - john everymarine. Let the good lord above decide which round worked better and just move on to your next target.

love it!!!!!