Rifle Gunfighting Notes - Reverse Shoulder

[Texican]

but I find it easier to curl my fingers around the back of the grip and pull the trigger with my thumb. Can anybody think of a reason I shouldn't be doing that?

Huh? Are we talking about the same thing? Butt of the rifle on the left shoulder, but the right hand still in the pistol grip (as the first stage of a side swap with the rifle....from which you can also fire). I'm not sure what you describe is physically possible.

Yes, this is physically possible... Gabe, I'm assuming that he means that instead of keeping the same firing grip, the hand is rotated around the front of the pistol grip, where the fingers, instead of being on the side, now are around the back. Since the fingers are in this position, the thumb is now used to operate the trigger (the thumb is no longer opposite the rest of the fingers, rather it is somewhat curled around the grip like the rest of the fingers- is that clear as mud? see photos...)


Is this what you mean, Fluffy? I'm not very comfortable doing it that way because, to me, it takes me more time to bring my thumb around. I suppose that if I had some flexibility issues with my wrist, that impeded me from firing the way Gabe is advocating, I would probably use this method.
As it stands now, I find that trigger control with this method is quite compromised.

Roy

p.s. I had to use a pistol instead of a rifle- it was easier to take the pics that way.

[Gabe Suarez]

That does not sound like a good idea to me.

[Roger Phillips]

As I work with the partial transfer, I have tried to incorporate it into what I already teach in my handgun course. The parial transfer really shines while moving to the 9:00 - 11:00 (user flexibility dependent.)

As we took the partial transfer into extreme angles of movement, to the 9:00 - 7:00, we found that rotating the rifle inboard (instead of the front sight being at 12:00, the front sight is at 3:00) was very helpful to get indexed on target and still be able to work the trigger efficiently.

Of course we are still talking about proximities inside of seven yards

I thought it was interesting....see what you guys think.

[Gabe Suarez]

SNB,

Interesting observation. It is basically the same as the pistol. We say, get the gun on target and keep it on target while you move around that relationship.

One thing I've been working is to go to the left shoulder Partial transfer, press a burst, full transfer and press a burst....all on the move of course.

Then repeat going the other way, beginning with the rifle in the left handed attitude. Partial transfer to right shoulder, fire a burst, full transfer and fire a burst.

Execute from full supported shoulder, shoulder and no cheek weld, underarm assault as well as lower on the hip. The full spectrum of steps along the mount.

Include dropping out of line into kneel, squat or prone, as well as include a quick transition to pistol and quick directional changes.

;) As soon as they think they have us figured out....;)

[Roger Phillips]

Cool stuff!....I can not believe how much I learn by just opening my mind and seeing what is possible. It does not hurt when your training partner is a literal genius.;)

You know your "back and forth" movement drill in the CRG DVD? We were playing with that with the rifle in partial transfer (rotating the gun when necessary) and full transfers (distance dependent).....nice drill. We were also doing the same type of thing with the S drill that I use (a variation of what I picked up from 7677 and Matt.)

I will find that S drill post and post it over here with the rifle variations.

You are on a great path....hope you don't mind if I keep throwing out observations.

[Roger Phillips]

The S-drill is an outstanding drill, I have put it to use in every course that I have taught. I do vary it somewhat from what Matt and 7677 does. I set up three targets (numbered 1-2-3.) The student "snakes" in a S pattern in front of the targets. I call out the number of the threat at the most appropriate ....... or the most inappropriate time.;)

My students are usually pretty advanced, so safety is not really a problem....so far. I use the S pattern in both directions. Laterally, back and forth, in front of the targets and directly, to and from the targets. This makes the responses come from every possible distance, direction and angle.

My students also go from different rifle readies, This way they can practice getting out of the kill zone as thet come out of their ready and engage. This also ingrains the movement that they have learned in the course and excellent muzzle control.

As I said this in front of three targets. I call out the threat by number. Additional threats can be called while engaging the initial one. Once again this makes the response from every direction and angle. This also puts you in very reactive situations.

The S-drills that I do bring everything that was taught together into one drill. Height of the gun, extension of the gun, necessary visual input on the gun and the threat, necessary level of reaction, necessary direction of movement, and the reorientation of movement due to additional factors.

Some fringe benefits are also play in, reloading on the move, how you perform under stress and physical exertion, and once again excellent trigger finger discipline and muzzle control.

It is the ultimate of "put it all together drills" IMHO. The instructors job is to put the students in situations that will create a positive response to the situation. Exploding off of the X and engaging as quickly as possible is key. Moving off of the line of attack is encouraged. Directional changes due to threat changes are also encouraged.

[VMIbravo62]

Gabe hit it on the head...so simple, everyone should be amazed when it doesn't occur to them.

After trying it, much to the amusement of my roommates, I've definitely got to work on this at the range.

Thanks again, Gabe!

[Cartouche]

Hot damn Gabe!

Just tried it -- interesting.

I did find, however that with both the AK and the AR, it was FAR easier to accomplish the transition if the support hand was on the magwell(AR)/magazine(AK), than if I had it on the handguards.

Same here My left hand seemed to gravitate to the mag(AK) as well. Just kinda slid there naturally. Gave me a little more side to side movement, picked up sights, and would seem to help on recoil. Not that recoil is that big of a problem.

[Eric]

OK, maybe I'm just dense, but I'm still not sure I get it.

In my mind's eye, I can see 3 - 4 different ways. Some seem OK, others patently absurd. Must admit I haven't tried this with airsoft or real rifle yet. I'm leery of doing something stupid and getting either an ND or abberant firing angle do to sloppiness.

Gabe, can you post a quick video, similar to the one you did for the AK reload from a BOB you did a while back? Would be very helpful to truly understand the correct mechanisms.

Especially the drill you described a little further up this thread with 2 bursts.

Sorry, but I just don't get as much rifle practice as I should and don't want to build bad habits. And the old "never fire without a good cheek weld" that was forced on my in JROTC shooting team 30+ years back.

Old habits die hard...

[Gabe Suarez]

Gabe, can you post a quick video, similar to the one you did for the AK reload from a BOB you did a while back? Would be very helpful to truly understand the correct mechanisms....

My policy is that I cannot post videos like this. We are developing some very cool stuff and already others are glomming onto this and teaching it (albeit incorrectly) without even a "thank you very much".

In about a month we will be bringing out our Kalashnikov Rifle Gunfighting DVD and it will feature a step by step process to do this both stationary and on the move.

I blow through a 30 round magazine in one scene firing no more than one or two rounds at a time from each shoulder transferring hands and shoulders continually during the exercise.