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  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Taylor View Post
    Im talking about those who make money off of their ministry. Who, by one way or another, make sure at least some of those tithes and offering make their way into their own pocket.
    LOL. So...back to those early days. As a pastor in training I learned that the ONLY way to keep the lights on was to keep the pews full on Sunday and the best way to do that was to preach the Word...but not so harshly that people stopped coming. If they aren't there, the offering basket is low and the salaried people are fired in favor of "volunteer ministries", and the lights are hard to keep on.

    So what happens is that the Word is softened up so it appeals to the attendees. If the church is in a liberal place..."Trump will be bad, illegal aliens must be taken care of, and lets pray for Joe and Kamel..." In a conservative place you will tend to see the opposite. And political involvement...which the church SHOULD DO as only the conservative side is their friend...fearing the revocation of their 501(c)3 status...they tend to not do that in a forceful way.

    The church is a business and a covert/subtle political animal (in re the social politics of their location).
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    3,408
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    And political involvement...which the church SHOULD DO as only the conservative side is their friend...fearing the revocation of their 501(c)3 status...they tend to not do that in a forceful way.
    Politics is downstream from culture, which is downstream from values.

    If a church does a good job of teaching values, including the the "why" of the thing, and the clergy and community does a good job in building a culture of living according to their values, then the pastor/priest doesn't *have* to get into the political layer.

    It's only when the church is soft on values and the church is a 60 minutes on Sunday kinda thing (or a Christmas/Easter Catholics) instead of a community of people who share values and culture that the person at the pulpit has to get explicit.

    That and someone needs to put a stake in the Prosperity Gospel nonsense going on.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    47,925
    IF

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyOblivion View Post
    Politics is downstream from culture, which is downstream from values.

    If a church does a good job of teaching values, including the the "why" of the thing, and the clergy and community does a good job in building a culture of living according to their values, then the pastor/priest doesn't *have* to get into the political layer.

    It's only when the church is soft on values and the church is a 60 minutes on Sunday kinda thing (or a Christmas/Easter Catholics) instead of a community of people who share values and culture that the person at the pulpit has to get explicit.

    That and someone needs to put a stake in the Prosperity Gospel nonsense going on.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic
    Posts
    351
    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter Ready View Post
    Christianity is not about helping the poor, social justice, or peace on earth. It is about Christ and knowing Him and trusting Him for salvation.

    The poor will always be with us. When Jesus was on earth, he didn’t heal all the sick or feed everyone, even though he could have done so. There is a lesson here for us.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    YES!
    THAT is a VERY GOOD fact to point out.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    170
    Honestly, none of this is new. Barrabus was the George Floyd of 33 AD. Take from that what you will.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    "Your life is yours alone. Rise up and live it."
    - Richard Rahl, The Sword of Truth

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    453
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    A worker is worthy of his wages. In Scottsdale, the pastor would indeed drive up in a BMW...but maybe not in Guadalupe. All relative. At one point, back before Obama's election, I was going to be a pastor...some may recall those heady days. I turned away from it for two reasons...There are way too many people that I abjectly despise and would rather throat-punch them than pray for or with them...and I like material things.

    A huge part of the modern social american church has largely adopted liberalism and I will never abide in that. Another part has eschewed the trappings of success...and that "don't hang with me" either.

    Just saying

    If that makes me bad...I accept my badness.
    I hope Im not misunderstood.

    They say Jesus was a carpenter. More likely its a mistranslation for 'builder', meaning probably a mason. Imagine if thd bible actually DID say mason... Anyways, He was a carpenter for this conversation.

    Where He lived, lumber was imported since it wasnt grown locally. Meaning it was only really used for expensive things. Even "cheap" wooden items would have still been costly.

    I dont think Jesus did shyte work.

    I dont think, therefore, Jesus was broke by a long shot.

    I do NOT think financial success is bad. In fact I think Hod would like us to enjoy the best things of this world, so far as we can maintain a sense of self and gratitude.

    I just do not believe that preaching the Gospel is a for-profit business. Although I do believe in charging tithes and that being a point of 'proof of descipleship', if that makes sense. I believe in the Pastor or the Head of the church deciding on how its spent.

    I just dont believe it pays for his mortgage.

  7. #17
    A few things.
    Define church. Not what you think church is but what the Bible says the church is. Then study what your responsibilities are to the "church".
    Also, tithes are not something you are charged. It's a offering to the Lord. Just as we are responsible to tithe, the organization we entrust that tithe with is also responsible. If you think they are being wasteful then give it to something else.

    For years I attended southern Baptist churches. But there is a reason I left along with the thousands of others that are leaving every year. From the way they move and hide pedophiles just like the catholic church, the way they treat women, the way a large portion of the pastors climb their corporate ladder ect, I'll never attended another sbc branded church. There is a of of money in the sbc brand. Between their collages, seminaries, the international missions board and their countless others state and local offices, camps, properties ect. It is not what church is supposed to be. I'm at the point where I will only attended non denominational independent gathering of believers from now on. Notice I didn't say church.

    Lastly, a pastor is just a guy. He's flawed just like everyone else. I refuse to " submit" to a pastor. My devotion is to the Lord. If the man behind the pulpit can help me be more effective for the sake of the gospel then I'll follow him, but that following is purely voluntary and conditional.
    Be alert, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong. Your every action must be done with love.

    “Adversity introduces a man to himself.”

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Exiled in Texas
    Posts
    7,543
    I skipped this thread when it first popped up because I just wasn't feeling patient enough to reply properly. I'll try now.

    Being frustrated is understandable. You've already identified the hypocrisy in your critics. They're happy to point to Jesus when they believe it supports their argument, but they'll turn their back on Him once they move onto their next point. They'll pull a verse out of context and probably misquote it, and completely fail to understand the message that was actually conveyed.

    My advice would be to sidestep the social justice argument entirely. Seize the opportunity that they present. This is someone who is clearly not truly devoted to God's Word. Getting them to talk about politics is easy. Getting them to talk about God is not. But in this scenario, they lofted you a softball. So swing at it. They brought up Jesus. Keep pointing the conversation back to that. And go Socratic on them--asking questions rather than making statements.

    "Jesus lived in a time with no air conditioning, no cable TV, no automobiles, and when a large portion of the population faced the very real threat of starvation. If He were here today, and He could minister to the poor directly, what do you think He would focus on? Would He be more worried about feeding their stomach or feeding their soul?"

    "Equality is important, as is justice. But if we all got true justice, we'd all burn in hell. That's why Jesus came here, sacrificed Himself on a cross, and rose again. He paid the price for us that we couldn't pay for ourselves. Jesus taught confession, repentance, and forgiveness. If Christ returned right now, do you really think that He'd be more worried about the fact that some people have newer cars and bigger houses, or would He be more focused on spreading that message of confession, repentance, and forgiveness?"

    Whenever non-Christians point to Christ, even if it is part of a flawed argument, it presents this spectacular opportunity. I've never been a comfortable witness for Christ. Some people have this amazing boldness to just go forth and spread the gospel with ease. I've never had it. I require the perfect set of circumstances in order to be able to actually share the gospel with someone. Fortunately, my job is very unique in that it repeatedly provides me with those very precise circumstances. I meet a lot of people who are at their lowest, and they come to me for help. I'll fight The Man for them, and along the way I often get the chance to talk about true salvation. Knocking on someone's door with a Bible in hand doesn't work in the 21st Century. But if you sit down in a jail cell with a man, and promise to fight for him, he'll listen to you. Most people don't get opportunities like that.

    If you are speaking to someone and they propose a "what would Jesus do" scenario, don't even try to win the argument. Try to win the soul. You have just been given an opening. It's like standing there with a football in your hand and watching the defensive line go charging off in the wrong direction. Don't go running after them to confront them. Seize the opportunity and run it into the end zone.
    Virtute et Armis

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