The best draw method for a defensive folder?

[Faramir2]

+1 for innovation. Really a pretty clever idea, viewed simply on its own merits. Yeah, there are overall more effective tools out there. But it's still a neat idea, I think, even though I wouldn't use it myself because I can use the better tools. But if I were sans those tools for some reason? Totally would consider it and put in the elbow grease necessary to become proficient with it. This reminds me a bit of Gabe's souped-up lever gun he used to keep in his trunk, way back in his dark ages in California, before things like reasonably affordable AR kit were available—take the tools available and optimize them, if that's the solution you have.

Because of belt real estate, I don't usually carry an additional blade besides my pocket folder, but I've been considering re-adding my GNS or GU to the support side hip as a retention tool. I need to get or make a trainer, though, to practice the draw and play with positioning. Doing that with a live blade isn't real swift and liable to result in damage to my clothes or myself, considering how sharp those things are.

[judomayhem]

This is the kind of thing that is born from a leather worker with an old knife laying around. How do you take that skill set and cram an old school style of knife into it. Its an ingenious solution for sure using off the shelf hardware but its out classed these days. I also worry that a huge problem in the draw method is the little grip jump. I bet it would cause problems under pressure.

Thumb studs and wave equipped folders bring the blade into the substandard hammer or saber grips....eventually. There is an elongated variation of a jump with each of them as your fingers still have to close around the blade opening somehow before use. With the standard opening methods you’re unable to block or attack (or both) on the draw with them. If a “good guy” is attacked he’s probably already behind the curve, and the limitations of even a wave equipped blade push him back further in effective response time.

If there is a better modern solution I’m unaware of it. But I’m willing to try.

In many ways the blade world is stuck in fantasyland like the square range handgun world was in 1998. Particularly when it comes to folders.

And for pretty much all of the same reasons.

This is a 90% solution to the problems that we see arise in knife fight footage. If I had my way, he’d make them for the Spyderco Delica. But that would require setting up new dies, and unless a massive order comes in it isn’t economically feasible. And there’s the “little issue” of working with a skilled craftsman and his one man shop. Gabe could tell you all about that, but probably not without much use of profanity.

[Dorkface]

Its true... how could we do better than a big heavy folder that was introduced in the 60's and leather sheath that takes up more belt space than my glock 19... other than in every way possible. :) Wouldn't want to use a smaller, lighter knife in a vertical orientation with a slim kydex sheath with a belt snap.

Like the square range guys in 90s this is like the speed draw myth. Even with knife you have to time the draw and create the space to do it.

[twinboysdad]

Thumb studs and wave equipped folders bring the blade into the substandard hammer or saber grips....eventually. There is an elongated variation of a jump with each of them as your fingers still have to close around the blade opening somehow before use. With the standard opening methods you’re unable to block or attack (or both) on the draw with them. If a “good guy” is attacked he’s probably already behind the curve, and the limitations of even a wave equipped blade push him back further in effective response time.

If there is a better modern solution I’m unaware of it. But I’m willing to try.

In many ways the blade world is stuck in fantasyland like the square range handgun world was in 1998. Particularly when it comes to folders.

And for pretty much all of the same reasons.

This is a 90% solution to the problems that we see arise in knife fight footage. If I had my way, he’d make them for the Spyderco Delica. But that would require setting up new dies, and unless a massive order comes in it isn’t economically feasible. And there’s the “little issue” of working with a skilled craftsman and his one man shop. Gabe could tell you all about that, but probably not without much use of profanity.

I believe the Spyderco P’Kal dews via wave into Reverse grip edge in

[Brent Yamamoto]

JM is right that attempting to access a folder in a reactive event puts one behind the curve. Lots of guys are fast with their folders, but under assault, in a moment when you're already LOSING, it's a shitty proposition.

That doesn't mean that a folder has no value, I just believe it to be talisman thinking to believe one can successfully deploy a folder under assault.

I don't know a lot of guys that consider themselves "knive people", but I know a few. Of those I know personally, they carry a fixed blade as primary and the folder is primarily a tool (as a weapon, it's a back up at best).

One guy I know, who is very much a knife specialist, looked at the legalities of not only carry but USE of the fixed blade and decided he was best off to forego the knife altogether and just carry a pistol. That's a determination we each have to make.

I personally don't hesitate to carry a fixed blade when I want one. But there are times when I choose a folder instead, and I can't fault a guy who makes that determination for himself. I think it's easy to say "carry a fixed blade" and while I don't disagree that it's a better tool, there are valid reasons a guy might choose differently. Just as there are circumstances when we might choose to carry a smaller gun, there are times we might choose a folder, recognizing that it's a compromise tool and accepting the drawbacks.

A folder has its place. I personally look at it primarily as a tool. As a weapon it's tertiary at best; I have better tools at my disposal (hands, gun, other), and only branch to a folder if there's no other choice. I don't really think I NEED a fast drawing folder (nonetheless, I did the homework and training to come up with the modified Endura, so their IS a modern tool that fits this need).


I recently picked up a Benchmade SOCP and have introduced it into the rotation. For me it's an easy switch between the SOCP and my Endura, since access is essentially the same.

Whatever we carry, and however we carry it, we need to train with it. Ideally against some opposition.

[judomayhem]

Thanks, Brent. I was unaware of that Endura. Looks to be about the equal of the “holster system” we are running. Solves a couple of our problems but perhaps introduces some more.

Pocket carry of any type has issues, even with the obvious thought and experience put into that design. Drawing mid brawl or on the run might be a challenge.

[Brent Yamamoto]

The only thing ideal about a folder is the convenience of carry. Everything else is a compromise and access under pressure is a challenge no matter what tool is being used. Some mechanisms are just easier than others.

But this is why the folder is very low on my list of tools to branch to. Our hands are immediate. Our gun is better, a holstered pistol is gonna be easier for most of us to access in most circumstances. And I am just guessing but I will guess most on this site have far more reps drawing a pistol than they do fixed or folding blades. (Myself included).

And some stuff from the pocket is easier than others. But all pocket tools are compromises.

[P.D.]

The only thing ideal about a folder is the convenience of carry. Everything else is a compromise and access under pressure is a challenge no matter what tool is being used. Some mechanisms are just easier than others.

But this is why the folder is very low on my list of tools to branch to. Our hands are immediate. Our gun is better, a holstered pistol is gonna be easier for most of us to access in most circumstances. And I am just guessing but I will guess most on this site have far more reps drawing a pistol than they do fixed or folding blades. (Myself included).

And some stuff from the pocket is easier than others. But all pocket tools are compromises.

What Brent said is exactly why I changed from a folder to a concealable fixed blade 4 or 5 years ago. Access is instantaneous.

[Dorkface]

Given the realities of trying to draw a pocket folder I don't even carry one anymore. A Gerber multi tool is in my pocket. I have used it far more and push comes to shove its a hunk of metal to bash things with on one side and needle nose on the other. Used the same way as bashing a bad guy with a spare mag.

My gang unit on the though just seeming jumps into my hand like my glock does.

[arvind]

My carry is also a leatherman multitool in my front pocket and a fixed blade on the belt. Having said that, just out of curiousity, what is the take on auto knives or assisted opening knives? Wouldn't those address the issues with blade draw issues inherent with folding knives?

Arvind