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  1. #1
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    Question Christian Resistance to Tyranny

    Much has been written on this topic by men much wiser than me. But as I watch the world appear to unravel around me I canít help but return to some of these fundamental questions in search of new insight:

    For those of us raised on Christian doctrine we are taught that God has established the civil magistrate and given him authority (although limited/constrained). When has that civil magistrate so exceeded the constraints established by God as to no longer be legitimate and therefore no longer worthy to be obeyed?

    All governments in existence today were established by conquest and armed conflict (this is without exception to the best of my knowledge - some may argue that the democratic process is a peaceful alternative but I think itís safe to say that, at its best, democracy is simply the tyranny of the majority and at its worst is a complete illusion and tool of despots and tyrants). At what point is it morally justified for Godís people to engage in conquest and armed conflict for the purpose of restoring or establishing just government in place of a tyrannical one?

    I know these are dangerous questions and they have been largely philosophical and abstract in the past. However, they seem to be becoming increasingly relevant as the leaders who claim legitimacy use their offices to destroy human liberty and erode natural rights. Therefore, I believe it to be worth the risk to ponder these questions more openly in the hope that the answers may yet provide a foundation for peaceful restraint of authoritarian rule and help to avoid both slavery and violence.

  2. #2
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    The NPCs/sheeple who preach such doctrines in relation to US politics don't like it when I'm part of the discussion.

    The "ruler" of the USA is the Constitution.

    Anyone subverting it is a traitor and in terms of this doctrine is the one sinning, and fighting such commies would be acting as this passage says you should act.
    "Why should I trade one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants one mile away. An elected legislature can trample a man's rights as easily as the king can." Benjamin Martin, The Patriot

  3. #3
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    Sep 2016
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    As is typical, the answer is given before the need for the question to be asked.

    https://youtu.be/4uE-tqe0xsQ

  4. #4
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    Correct. The Constitution is the established authority. People I know, even family, don’t like it when I’m part of the conversation either. They don’t talk to me any more.
    Missionary Spencer Smith spoke about this subject recently, more or less making a mockery of these people, asking how the strict Romans 13 people now felt about the Christians in Afghanistan having to live under the taliban.
    I work around a guy who is hard-line Church of Christ and strict Romans 13 (I don’t know if they’re all that way). Apparently his church teaches that one should never disobey. Without having to type out the entire conversation, I just told him that if that was the case, our forefathers had to have been living in sin by rebelling against the king of England, therefore we needed to sign the deed for this little piece of property called America back over to England. He didn’t have much of a reply for that.
    Psalm 139:21,22
    Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
    I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.


    The truth is hatred to those who hate truth.

  5. #5
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    Mar 2009
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    Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by res308 View Post
    Correct. The Constitution is the established authority. People I know, even family, don’t like it when I’m part of the conversation either. They don’t talk to me any more.
    Missionary Spencer Smith spoke about this subject recently, more or less making a mockery of these people, asking how the strict Romans 13 people now felt about the Christians in Afghanistan having to live under the taliban.
    I work around a guy who is hard-line Church of Christ and strict Romans 13 (I don’t know if they’re all that way). Apparently his church teaches that one should never disobey. Without having to type out the entire conversation, I just told him that if that was the case, our forefathers had to have been living in sin by rebelling against the king of England, therefore we needed to sign the deed for this little piece of property called America back over to England. He didn’t have much of a reply for that.
    I’m in the same boat, Christians don’t like talking to me about Romans 13 and typically respond emotionally. Like so many other cognitive dissonance occurrences they’re unable to discuss the topic rationally.
    I stumbled on a site called Yashanet a decade or so ago when studying this. http://www.yashanet.com/studies/romstudy/text13.htm
    Short version is Romans 13 has to do with the synagogue leadership of the time, and makes no sense if you put it in context of civil government vs. all of the Christians disobeying government orders. In context of scripture, even just the few chapters immediately before and after, it becomes much more obvious.

    I also bring in what Benjamin said, that the ruler of this country is the Constitution and we the people; we don’t have a king or emperor so even if they read Romans 13 with that interpretation it has no bearing on the USA. Any halfway intelligent biblical scholar has no excuse for the hardline mainstream Romans 13 stance.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanb View Post
    I know these are dangerous questions and they have been largely philosophical and abstract in the past. However, they seem to be becoming increasingly relevant as the leaders who claim legitimacy use their offices to destroy human liberty and erode natural rights. Therefore, I believe it to be worth the risk to ponder these questions more openly in the hope that the answers may yet provide a foundation for peaceful restraint of authoritarian rule and help to avoid both slavery and violence.
    Interesting first post. Here is the deal

    1. Specially now as in the past...agent provocateurs infiltrate social media sites like this to foment the sort of activity they can act upon. Much safer than kicking a door on a den of real terrorists. So...no...not here.

    2. Christian what? All American Christians will do is sing a few songs on Sunday...say a few virtue signalling group prayers and go about their lives submitting to whatever they are told to do...just like AMerican Jews, American Mormons, and American Buddhists.

    3. Christianity has nothing to do with the issues today because the main issue today is not "church" it is FREEDOM. And nobody is going to put everything they have on the line today for a notion of a godly America. Maybe you would...go ahead...I will hold your beer.

    4. Hmmm. No real #4...read 1, 2, and 3 again. WT will not get into the creation of this sort of thing. Try someplace else.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    1,755
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post

    4. Hmmm. No real #4...read 1, 2, and 3 again. WT will not get into the creation of this sort of thing. Try someplace else.
    Yep
    I was born for a storm, and a calm does not suit me. - Andrew Jackson

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    452
    Well, Im Mormon, and I go to church every sunday. I clean the church building every saturday. Anyways...

    I have taken issue, and have brought it up with local leaders, with certain points of (non)doctrine in the church. I call them mormonisms, just myths and stupid things people say. Stories of unicorns and rainbows with pots of gold that particularly women like to perpetuate.

    Its funny, because scripture is FULL of head chopping, body slaying bad asses. But contemporaries confuse tears of 'spirituality' with righteousness. Its exhausting.

    There is the story of a guy in the Book of Mormon of a guy who is heralded as a righteous man.

    He breaks into the enemy camp at night, and throws a javelin into the enemy leaders chest, killing him nearly instantly. Then ninja's his way out without getting caught.

    His only regret? He didnt kill his brother, also (which he later did).

    But no one likes to talk about that.

    There is a difference, however, between personal righteousness and national.

    Kill commies everyday.

  9. #9
    Something about being wise as serpents and innocent as doves comes to mind.
    Be alert, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong. Your every action must be done with love.

    ďAdversity introduces a man to himself.Ē

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Interesting first post. Here is the deal

    1. Specially now as in the past...agent provocateurs infiltrate social media sites like this to foment the sort of activity they can act upon. Much safer than kicking a door on a den of real terrorists. So...no...not here.

    2. Christian what? All American Christians will do is sing a few songs on Sunday...say a few virtue signalling group prayers and go about their lives submitting to whatever they are told to do...just like AMerican Jews, American Mormons, and American Buddhists.

    3. Christianity has nothing to do with the issues today because the main issue today is not "church" it is FREEDOM. And nobody is going to put everything they have on the line today for a notion of a godly America. Maybe you would...go ahead...I will hold your beer.

    4. Hmmm. No real #4...read 1, 2, and 3 again. WT will not get into the creation of this sort of thing. Try someplace else.
    Well, Iím sure thereís nothing I can do to convince you that Iím not an ďagent provocateurĒ but I am disappointed that the contemporary Christian church that so many experience is exactly as youíve described.

    As memory serves, the clergy of the (first?) American Revolution were so instrumental in stirring up the people that they were widely referred to as ďthe black robe battalionĒ. Sadly, most of todayís ministers are pseudo intellectuals with soft, pink hands who value comfort and leisure over nearly all else. They condition the laity to inaction and passivity and leave them vulnerable to predation by tyrants.

    I am truly grateful for the few faithful ministers of the Gospel who have spoken out and called their congregations to action during this period of growing darkness for human liberty and religious freedom.

    I respect the work youíve done over the years and certainly donít want to paint a target on you or WT by raising uncomfortable questions - Iíll keep future posts ďon topicĒ.

    Given your stated concerns about my motives and intent, I appreciate you allowing this post to stand and not expelling me from WT.

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