Clinch Pick usage question for ECQC students

[PaseMkr]

Hi all,

I have not yet taken an ECQC training course, but I plan to. My understanding of the Clinch Pick is to wear it center line where it is accessible from either hand and that it is typically used to create distance or break contact so that you can get you your firearm during an extreme entanglement. My question is for those who have taken an ECQC course and encountered a scenario like I mentioned. After you have created the distance, if you still are in need to draw your firearm quickly, do you just drop the Clinch Pick to free your hands? Thanks. I was just thinking it over in my head, since the knife has no ring retention or mechanism to easily hold it and still be able to utilize both hands.

Steve

[Dorkface]

Why drop the knife when you can shoot and stab at the same time? Or give the bad guy a chance to grab it?

Also Brent is more awesome.

[GhostRidder]

I've taken ECQC and the clinch pick position and size envelope is designed for access when tied up with someone standing, seated, or grounded. It's all about access and making space. To you specific question. I saw everything from dropping it to switching hands when transitioning to the pistol. I dropped it every time.

[PaseMkr]

Thanks Ghost and Dork. Both options make sense. I was considering it an either/or, but like everything, I guess it depends on the specific entanglement. My inital line of thinking was that it was needing two hands, one to clear the cover garment and the other to draw, in which case, dropping the knife would probably be better. But a one handed draw and shoot would also be an option that I wasn't thinking about, especially if there is more than one attacker, because why risk arming another attacker? Hmmmmm.

[twinboysdad]

Pressure test it yourself, let us know what you think. It’s truly the only way

[Sleestak]

I took ECQC once and IAJJ a couple of times. I agree you'll have to pressure test it in class and see what you like, You could drop it, transition to other hand, or just leave it in the guy. In ECQC in particular you'll have plenty of opportunity to experiment. Make sure to throw a couple of gel ice packs in your cooler, you'll get bruised up. It's fun.

[Brent Yamamoto]

It's all about access and making space.

This is the key when it comes to dealing within arms reach of bad guys in need of killing. You must make the space in order to access your weapon. This is primarily the pistol, but there are times when that isn't possible or isn't preferred, and we branch to the knife. And it really doesn't matter what type of knife it is (though some are easier to carry and access than others, and some knives and sheaths have better execution than others, making them more fit for purpose).

I think a problem with gun people is that they overestimate the need for "space" and "distance". Most gun people are uncomfortable within bad breath range, and it's all about creating distance. And I don't disagree that it's desireable and that we should practice such things (you can see that in our pistol kata). But often, real distance simply isn't possible. And when we say "create space to draw the weapon", I think most are overestimating what is needed.

You just don't need that much space to draw a pistol or knife. You need just enough to accomplish the task and shoot. Two hands to clear the garment is best, so practice that. Two hands are not always available...so practice clearing/drawing with one. At bad breath distance, one hand (at least) is going to be engaged with the bad guy...that hand can be clearing the garment AND defending your face if you know how...and it may or may not have a knife in it. It is possible to clear a garment with a knife in the hand (admittedly it's more risky, but this is a fight for your life so everything is fucking risky).

I personally wouldn't advocate dropping the knife unless it can't be helped. But if it can't be helped, then drop it and move on. At the distances we are talking about, two-handed shooting is not necessary. Knowing how to keep your bad guy at bay, with knife in hand, moving your body in such a way as to avoid/mitigate damage, accessing the pistol and ensuring you don't shoot yourself in the process...well it's not especially complicated in terms of the how. Actually doing it against a resistant bad guy is another thing. But that's what training and practice is for.

This is something we cover extensively in 0-5 and Pistol Ground Fighting. No offense to others who teach similar material but we know a thing or two about this subject. :)

And just to stir the pot...while I completely agree it's a good thing to have a back up weapon accessible to either hand (I developed the Heretic for a reason), I think it takes a back seat to understanding movement on your feet (getting off the X), movement with your body (twisting, shifting, pivoting, whatever), and coordinating that movement your hands to avoid damage and access your primary weapon.


It's not easy but it's also not complicated.

[Redneck Zen]

I remember decades ago reading an article about this kind of thing by David Steele in Soldier of Fortune -- yeah, I was one of those guys, a twenty-something fresh out of the army, reading SOF, Gung-Ho, all that Paladin Press crap lol and worshipping at the altar of Echanis, Cooper, Bagwell, et al. Ah, youth ....

Anywho, Steele recounted an incident where he had to go through a barracks building looking for bad guys; it was extremely close quarters, potential threats just around every corner, so he had a pistol in one hand, knife in the other. I can't recall which role he was in at the time -- he was military and a cop in one form or another throughout his career -- or the outcome other than he lived to write about it.

This probably has no value to this thread other than to say knife and gun combination is not unheard of. I thought it was pretty interesting when I read it, reminded me of Musashi's "nito ichi" (or something like that) two-handed sword style. Echanis liked two knives, too, for whatever that's worth.

[GhostRidder]

I think a problem with gun people is that they overestimate the need for "space" and "distance". Most gun people are uncomfortable within bad breath range, and it's all about creating distance. And I don't disagree that it's desireable and that we should practice such things (you can see that in our pistol kata). But often, real distance simply isn't possible. And when we say "create space to draw the weapon", I think most are overestimating what is needed.

Interesting insights. I have to give you more context on space. The unique thing about the clinch pick to me is it allows you to violate Craig's "In Fight Weapon Access rule". That is you control your appointment's hand closest to your weapon. I'm comfortable drawing a pistol in a clinch but only after I've achieved a dominant position. The clinch pick allows me to inject a weapon when I don't have position and use it to get position. That is what I mean by making space.

Knives carried in other positions force elbow articulation. I use greco roman wrestling in the clinch. Head position, underhooks, overhooks, wrist ties. I don't want to open a hole between my body an arm to allow my opponent to get an underhook. When I've achieve dominant position I'm happy reaching on my belt. Ideal dominant position for me is an underhook with head control and a both my opens arms tied up. I find that generally in BJJ, Westling and weapon access. If I go for a weapon or a submission before I have position it creates a hole somewhere and my opponent gets a dominate position on me in the "vacuum."

And just to stir the pot...while I completely agree it's a good thing to have a back up weapon accessible to either hand (I developed the Heretic for a reason), I think it takes a back seat to understanding movement on your feet (getting off the X), movement with your body (twisting, shifting, pivoting, whatever), and coordinating that movement your hands to avoid damage and access your primary weapon.

I own one of your Heretics. It's awesome. Cutting the ring allows one to carry it in a front pocket and basically have clinch pick like access. I use it like a P'kal knife and it works very well. I treat mine as a NPE weapon. Wish I had more pockets as it would be a great less lethal but I have room for 1 so go for OC EDC

[Marco Innocenti]

As soon as it available again, go and take Pistol Groundfighting. (If you had a good experience with ECQC, you will have an outstanding experience at P.G.)

Brent is a truly masterful teacher, and his student body was exceptional both as training partners and for the knowledge/experience they all shared.

Probably the best single, real combatives class I’be ever taken. (I haven’t taken ECQC, but I’ve had a lot of training over the years, from many serious people.)

If you search, you should be able to find my AAR from the one I took with Brent at his Dojo in WA back in February of 2019.

If you can, take it there. His associate instructors form his Dojo were also really solid, and if you are REALLY lucky Papa will be there.

You haven’t experienced the very foundational concepts of “Command Presence” until Papa stares you down.

USS!