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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Colorado
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    8,598
    It could be a scar from video games. In almost all video games walls, bushes, a metal folding chair or just about anything else will stop everything. Movies are just as bad in a lot of cases.
    Geek Warlord
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  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    47,774
    OK....just had a chat with one of my old homies who worked a special unit in LAPD that shall not be named.

    He acknowledged the mistakes.

    The shooter was what we called a "poo butt gangbanger". Aka a "punk ass bitch". Street theater for a lightweight, low grade criminal. High on meth and shooting a Kel-Tec shotgun. Bad guy was loaded with birdshot and slugs (yeah...).

    The first officer shot gas (not less lethal) into the house and dropped back. The injured officer took the exact same spot and level as the gas man. That was a mistake as the shooter was already pointed in. He took two rounds of bird shot...one in the vest and one in the helmet. A few pellets in the face and it knocked him out. Officer recovered.

    The officer is a new member of an experienced element. In fact, the team leader of that element was our student back in the 1990s. In short...sometimes shit goes wrong. He acknowledged that they do in fact teach bilateral shooting, shooting through walls, and all of that jazz. Much of it brought back from the guys Sua has walked the same ground with.

    But sometimes, inexperienced guys learn hard lessons.

    So there you have it
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    117
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    But sometimes, inexperienced guys learn hard lessons.
    As long he learns this incident could have created one tactically squared away officer going forwards.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Third Coast
    Posts
    4,649
    I wont point anything else out save,

    One, he took a shot in the plate, they (the team) didnt press, but he didnt fall back and whine about it, he acknowledged and continued the job. Good on him.

    Two, Partner should have pulled him back and swapped spaces, Command should have pulled him off the line and replaced him . You think you are ok, but hell I missed a couple of strikes to the carrier and a piece of frag in the inner thigh for several days. You have the manpower to pull him back, and at least do a strip and assess for injuries back at the bus. This wasnt a pressed fight at this point (and they didnt make it one) , BG was doing "stay away" shooting instead of pressing an attack, so you have time and manpower to accomplish this BEFORE he pops out again and takes one in the face. You also have high rifle cover if the BG does decide to press an attack (as evidenced by the high point taking the shot when BG did move towards downed officer)

    Three, playing whack a mole from the same position is stupid, movement is life.

    Four, LL weapons systems are for gassing a house at a distance, NOT for corner positions, Impact LL are NOT for subjects armed with firearms.
    NEVER CONFUSE GETTING LUCKY WITH GOOD TACTICS (unless you are at the bar)

    I'm not in the business of Losing

    A stab to the taint beats most of the mystical bullshit, most of the time

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Utah
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    1,091
    That moment when the initial intel that the perp had a BB gun was proven false . . . RoE should have changed immediately.
    Lord of harvest, grant that we wholesome grain and pure may be. Hymn, Come Ye Thankful People Come

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    47,774
    From the element leader at the scene "Thereís a small problem of a gas mask filter that prevents an effective transition to the support side shoulder. Also, the officers in question had to break cover to place gas into their assigned openings. Itís unfortunate the amount of Monday morning quarterbacking that occurs after these types of events by people who werenít present nor know the details of what actually occurred"

    As I mentioned, I know the man. And I must say that he is right.

    When a surgery goes wrong...or an airplane engine bursts into flames, few of us will criticize the surgeon or the engineer. But take that surgeon and that engineer through a few shooting classes and they seem to think they can opine on things they have never done in the real world. That is unfortunate and grating on the operators. But critiques are an essential part of learning, and they must be done regardless of how uncomfortable they may be.

    If we had never "Monday morning quarterbacked" the Newhall Incident, or the Miami Shootout, or Columbine, or even the North Hollywood Shooting, we would never have learned from them and never had grown from those events. So the issue is not the quarterbacking...it is the experience of the quarterback on that Monday morning. Other than maybe three or four guys on this thread who are or have been actual "footballers" to continue with the analogy, the rest are unqualified aren't they...lest we have footballers advise accountants on tax law, or doctors advising engineers on airplane design.

    That notwithstanding there are things to learn here. There is a tactical need to use both shoulders and if a piece of kit prevents that, the need to use a technique is not nullified. The solution as simple as it may be is to find a new piece of equipment (difficult for small agencies but not too difficult for a large one we would think), or develop alternative means of executing that method.

    As far as ROE, while as individuals we have our own, we must understand that the individual's ROE is far looser and open than that of an agency, or a deployed special unit within that agency...specially in a political time such as this...and specially in an agency as politicized as that one.

    The goal in all of this was to learn a few things, and I hope we have all done that...I know I have.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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