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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Default Lethal range of buckshot-collateral damage

    For a while the shotgun kept behind the door has been loaded with number 4 buck since its ability to do damage at a distance is much less than that of larger buckshot and certainly less than a 9mm pistol or a rifle.

    I looked at ballistic chart for buck velocities vs distance and found the following https://brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Ma.../Buckshot.html


    #4 is still lethal at a hundred yards, but almost any obstacle such as a privacy fence would greatly slow it down.

    Still a lot of factors to consider and I am still thinking about related issues and its use.
    Last edited by barnetmill; 02-24-2021 at 09:54 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    1,873
    Well if this isn’t one of the most Ayoobian things I have ever seen I don’t know what is.
    I carry two kinds of trauma kits. One for fixing it and one for causing it.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    In the good Old South
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    728
    Looks like 00 holds up better but fewer shot in the shell.
    Dave

    "If your sport does not put grease, blood, or dirt under your fingernails, then it's just a game!"

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    MI
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    121
    Years ago on a deer drive in palmetto grass in Florida we found blood in the grass fresh blood and it wasn’t from anything we shot so we followed it and kicked up a doe, she broke from cover and hauled ass across an opening, I had a 12 gauge with 00 buck, at my first shot she was about 60 yards away, first shot knocked her down and she got back up and changed directions and my second shot knocked her down to stay at a paced off 77 yards.
    Nothing to do with combat , but I was very surprised that several pellets hit her at 60ish and almost 80 yards. Now it was a long barreled full choke shotgun but - 00 buck can be lethal at distance. And that same gun and load was hell on wheels on many many deer drives from MI cedar swamps to southern Boggs .
    In my house or if I lived in a neighborhood I’d give the same attention to possible collateral damage with buckshot as a rifle or handgun round.
    I’ve been flamed here for this statement before but I don’t need nor seek anyone’s approval for things I’ve tested myself- me and the misses both rely on modern battle axes -the 12 gauge with attached light for our bump in the night weapons. They are loaded with #5 lead shot and buckshot in the butt cuff. At room distance- our rooms a small cabin style farm house it’s a devastating load on flesh and has not much gas’s left after two sheets of drywall with insulation in between.
    Before you scoff at the idea shoot a beef shoulder with blue jeans over it at 9 feet . It’s like a frangible slug. Also shoot a framed wall with insulation in between the two sheets of drywall, some bbs may make it through the second sheet but I found them laying in the snow on the other side. Some piece of mind with the kids bedrooms on the opposite side of the house.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    NWFL
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    16,360
    Thanks Nagantguy. Your thinking is not too different from mine. For a shotgun you match your ammo to needs of where and what you are going to shoot with it. We do have a flow diagram of when to apply deadly force under conditions of world with rule of law but not for what weapons we choose; it seems to be up to the individual to chose what is to be deployed.
    I just found out that a bear was seen emerging from my property where it meets a substantial creek/wet forest. The dogs for several months have been going berserk at something on the other side of the fence. The bear was described as a young one, perhaps if it came inside the property a couple of farm bulldogs could kill it. Maybe not and I might have to put it down to save the dogs from getting into a mauling fight with a bear.
    While some seem be ok with it, I do not plan putting a .308 through a neighbor's bedroom wall.
    Someone I shoot with that use to do a lot bird hunting put some special loads together. Some of the loads while shooting tight were still fine for hitting water fowl in the air; he made some much tighter patterning loads of number 2 lead shot that would kill cripples with on the water out to 70 yards.
    Different from shooting rioters attacking your car with a tac 14 short barrel shotgun.
    Buckshot normally spreads quite a bit, but still with double ought a hit with one or two pellets is possible at long range. There are the flight control loadings from federal that are based on the aerodynamic drag slowing the shotcup causing the shot to be expelled from the cup makings a tighter pattern is the claim. My friend with his number 2 tight patterning handloads was doing the same thing, but in a different way. I will trade him some factory 00 Buck for a few of his rounds and break them down for study.
    Very tight patterns are typically used in turkey hunting for headshots. At 50 yards night can one do head shots on a bear etc with number four buck is my thinking? This would be meat on the metal. No rifle sights, but a laser would not be out of the question.
    All this is speculative at moment.


  6. #6
    Join Date
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    NWFL
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    With a proper fitting stock, at night and on a moving target even without wide pattern, the shotgun does better.

    Screenshot_2021-02-27 The Shotgun or the Rifle.jpg

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    184
    I pattern my shotgun and ammo combos out to 75 yards using 00. It may not be optimal, but my setup will place 1-3 pellets COM on a 2/3 ipsc target at 75, nearly every time. I live very rural, and coyotes are a livestock issue. Stray pellets are far less a concern than not killing the coyote.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    576
    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    With a proper fitting stock, at night and on a moving target even without wide pattern, the shotgun does better.

    Screenshot_2021-02-27 The Shotgun or the Rifle.jpg
    I would be interested to see the backup for this image. CQB distance and it’s assumed you shoot over the shoulder? I could face shoot people all day long at CQB distances in PAINTBALL with point shooting only; no reflex sights involved. CQB center mass is not an issue with a carbine, sights optional. The shotgun pattern is suspect, also. I’m no shotgun expert but that looks like an extreme spread for “CQB” distances and buck shot. A third thing, what is the reference for “CQB” distance? 10ft? 30?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    North Dakota
    Posts
    955
    A couple thoughts:
    *I donít know that there is a set distance for CQB. Itís somewhere in between needing to really concentrate on your sights and being able to beat the guy to death with a canned ham. I wouldn't over think it. Pace off a distance in your house or from your front door to your street. If Iím fighting in my living room or on my driveway, thatís a close quarter battle. I have an open concept house, and my bedroom door to the kitchen sliding glass door is well past 15 paces. 15 yards would roughly translate to a 15 inch pattern, so the pattern size on the diagram seems reasonable.

    *Iíve seen this diagram before and always thought that the center of the shotgun pattern should be shifted left. That would more accurately compare missing over the shoulder with a pistol to ďmissingĒ over the shoulder with a shotgun. However even after shifting the shotgun pattern, it would still give a couple pellets to the face and a few to the shoulder. Pellets on target is a desired outcome; rack slide and repeat.

    *Iíve used a shotgun on animals both running and in flight, and I have an appreciation for how effective it can be to unload multiple projectiles with one flick of the index finger. I might get one snap shot before that pheasant is on the other side of the brush or the raccoon burrows in the hole in the barn wall. The same holds true on felony stops or disagreements in the trailer park. I might get one snap shot on the guy with the pistol before he ducks behind cover, and him being unwounded and behind cover makes my mission of stopping him that much more interesting.

    *I can shoot my pistol center-of-face all day long at 15 yards when Iím stationary and the target is stationary. But if one or both of us are moving, my marksmanship is less reliable. Want to hit the dirtbag running for cover? Maybe Iíll have time for a burst of 3 or 4 9mm rounds. But it wonít be as fast or as many projectiles as 9 pellets all launched at the same moment. The bitch works best when things are up close, fast moving, and fleeting.

    *On the original post, the primary mission of the shotgun round is to be devastating. Overpenetration is a concern, but that concern doesnít make my top 5. Youíve got to win the fight in front of you first. I have a paperback by Peter Capstick, and in between stories from Africa he had an article where he studied buckshot. As I recall, he found either 0 buck or 1 buck to be the most effective payload (I canít recall which, 0 or 1. Perhaps if I get bored Iíll look it up). 00 buck has such a large diameter that it precludes putting more pellets in the hull. But a slight reduction in the buckshot diameter from 00 to 0 or 1 allowed for noticeably more pellets in the shell. I have reservations about 4 buck, I donít see 1 buck in factory loads, so I stick with 00.
    There comes a time in every manís life when he is called upon to do something very special for which he and he alone has the capabilities, has the skills, and has the necessary training. What a pity if the moment finds the man unprepared. óWinston Churchill

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Washington State
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    1,696
    CB:
    Well-written and practical.
    Thanks
    Greek
    Ted Demosthenes
    Suarez International Staff Instructor


    From Murphy's Laws of Combat: "Incoming has the right-of-way" (so, GTFOTX!!)


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