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  1. #41
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    Oct 2003
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    In the world but not of it
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    Recently I read this whole history of M16's development, and I kind of recall that the design basis for the new rifle specified disposable magazines.

    http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-1.html

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    516
    How many magazines? Are they going to be there? Where are you going?

    Are you absolutely positive extra mags are always going to come along?

    My point is nobody knows where or in what situation they will be at all

    times. If we trained for the, "worst case scenario," all other situations

    are still relevant to that training.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Chattanooga TN
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke
    I have never heard of nor seen an account of an urban civilian rifle fight in the USA (where a law-abiding citizen using a rifle engaged one or more attackers). Can anybody point to one?
    Sure. The "Battle of Athens Tennessee" in 1946 where newly returned GIs stormed the National Guard Armory armed themselves with Garands and 03 Springfields and forced the local corrupt sheriff and his cronies to vacate the office after an OBVIOUSLY fixed election(and after a gun battle!)

    The Doolin-Dalton Gang double bank robbery in Coffeyville Kansas and the James-Younger gang Northfield Minnesota robbery both involved citizens employing long guns against criminal attack. Yes it was 130 years ago, but the dynamics of violent confrontation are really not much different than they are today. Both are cases of rifle armed citizens wiping out "gang members" who were in commission of violent felonies. Maybe we need MORE of this!!

    Really though we are almost arguing how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin. In an "everyday" civillian situation you wll in all likelihood fire LESS than what your rifle holds.After all, in the majority of confrontations it will be "pistol distance" anyways. In the event that you DO fire more than it holds then your PISTOL is faster than ANY reload.

    So now what are our chances of needing to fire every round in our rifle AND pistol? Slim. So work mostly on QUICKLY and ACCURATELY firing your rifle and transitioning to pistol mostly because that is the most likely thing for us civillians. If you are LE or MIL then the other guys will cover you while you reload! With the civillian rifle reload, it will likely be a "proactive/tactical/whatever you want to call it" reload after the targets are down or have run away so stowing the empty makes sense. Most are not gonna stay and play when the rifle starts going BOOM BOOM BOOOM! and chunks of concrete and auto body start flying from rounds impacting their area. Most people just simply don't prefer to be shot.

    Of course if you are in a "no win situation", surrounded by Somali hordes firing AKs and RPGs at you then yes dropping the mags and slamming in a fresh one to continue firing to hold them back makes sense, but when is the last time you heard of something like that happening in the US? June 1876 in Montana maybe?;)
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 05-30-2006 at 08:56 AM.
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    Joel 3:10 - Beat your plowshares into swords , and your pruning hooks into spears; train even your weaklings to be warriors.

    Through HIS power I can walk on water..IF I just have the faith and courage to get out of the boat.

    A good man who's done a couple of bad things along the way....

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cheney, WA
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    2,053

    Default probabilites

    TOMC posted: "If we trained for the, "worst case scenario," all other situations are still relevant to that training."

    Sorry, I must respectfully disagree. It is most efficient to train for the highest probability event, and then add overlays as plan B, plan C, etcetera to deal with one-offs and outliers such as a worst case scenario. The overlays should build upon the highest probability case plan, but never actually change it.

    God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    Boy...go to sleep for a while and..........

    Some points.

    1). On FOF not offering the same "feel' as an actual shot. true. The technology is not there yet...but I would counter that in no range exercise, regardless of how cleverly disguised, there ae never the factors of pain, pressure, or momentum. If range skills do not withstand this, then they are faulty. Personally, I'll go with what I see in dynamic drills and not what I see in gun game focused range training.

    2). Civilian uses and scenarios. I see these as proactive (we know things are bad) events. Thus shootouts with everyday crimianls as occur often in the nation are not the issue. The issue are events where you've had time to grab up your weapons. Probably not the fairly tale comment "I carry my pistol to fight to my rifle", but rather you experience an unusual event such as I describe below.

    3). Scenarios - Natural Disasters. Look at the Hurricanes in Florida (Kissimmee sp?), New Orleans, etc. Look at the riots in Los Angeles. Look at the Earthquake in Los Angeles. Heck...look at ANY natural disaster and you quickly see how useless governing forces are. You will either Bug Out, or stay and defend. Even if you stay and defend, keeping magazines in the bag makes sense if you must give up a part of the structure. Another scenario is being out in the woods and coming accross a meth camp. Don't laught...it happens.

    4). Now having said this. If you have had the intell and knowledge to arm yourself with your rifle...why on God's earth would you ever leave a pistol behind?? The pistol lives on you daily. I just got up and am not through my first cup of coffee, but my Glock 23 is on my belt. The rifle lives in safes, under beds, in trucks, on pegs on wall, etc. You go grab it when things have gotten so bad that the pistol cannot be counted on and the idea of 911 is laughable.

    5). Transitioning to pistol is faster...much faster than any reload. I will prove it to any gun-guru who wants to argue the point. So if the rifle stops, why would you do something that is slower in a test of speed? And what makes you think the stoppage (an empty gun is a stoppage) will be fixed by a reload?? Ever try reloading a type 3 in an AR-15???

    6). If you are behind cover or have distance...which is wise, you have time. If you have time why not save the spent/partial magazine. Remember, you are alone...in military terms...in extremis...and no one is coming to help. Finding ammo or resupplying from the safe location you are going to will be easy. Finding mags may not be.

    7). I used to believe in the idea of resupplying from the friendly forces. Thus ARs and .223 ammo seemed the best idea. Then I saw what happened with Katrina and the friendly forces are as anti-armed citizen as the thugs you are armed against. Think you'll get a spare ammo bandolier or a magazine from the NG, Police, or Fed guys? Don't bet on it. Thus having a different (and IMHO more effective) caliber is not an issue.

    8). Manual of arms...of sorts. Rifle stops working for any reason (you cannot always assume its an empty rifle can you?) and the bad guy is within 50 yards, immediately and without even glancing at the rifle, go to handgun. Stimulus is a dead trigger.

    If you're behind cover and enemy is distant, check rifle and fix it. Save the spent/partial magazine. You have the time...why not do it.

    9). Civilian Gear. You MUST be low profile. For civilian rifle men there is no place for Operator Chest Rigs or Afghanistan Chic. You must be low profile.

    Remember everyone is against you.

    a). The thugs who want to take your stuff are against you. If they see you strutting aroungd in MARPAT, they will shoot you in ambush and it won't matter how good you are at the IPSC Rifle skill set.

    b). The neighbors...if you are unfortunate enough to live in a commie state populated by sheeple and snitches...will turn you in to the first cop they see if you look too "threatening". In my neighborhood we would be stockpiling and sharing stores, but I digress.

    c). The cops. This is not an anti-cop hread, nor am I anti-cop, but we cannot ignore how they (specially California and NY cops) targeted civilians to disram them. In events such as this, do not trust the uniform...trust the man in it...if you know him. Otherwise keep low and unseen.

    Having said the above, hide your stuff. That is one reason why I have gone over 100% to the rifle bug out bag concept. You keep it right next to the rifle and when you grab the rifle, you sling it over your shoulder. Simple and no need to do anything else. And another thing is to carry a lightweight simple long gun capable of being hidden in plain sight such as in a lawn chair bag.

    OK....time for another cup.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #46
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    367
    I'm sure he's referring to a training facility located outside Pahrump NV with a name
    that's the named after the assembly located at the end of the barrel or slide on most firearms.

    Politically incorrect to mention directly by name here I'm pretty sure.
    I did not realize they were located in Pahrump. I thought they were in Las Vegas. Is there a thread around here explaining why they are politically incorrect? I've not had any contact with them besides watching a sales video a few years ago.

  7. #47
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    The facility is Front Sight and they are not politically incorrect...we just don't like them.

    Why?

    That is a long story. Go there and do what I teach in CRG. Then after the King Range Nazi is out of breath from cussing you out, tell him you train with Gabe Suarez and see what happens.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    New Braunfels, TX
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    7,501
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez
    The facility is Front Sight and they are not politically incorrect...we just don't like them.

    Why?

    That is a long story. Go there and do what I teach in CRG. Then after the King Range Nazi is out of breath from cussing you out, tell him you train with Gabe Suarez and see what happens.
    So many funny things to say, so little space.

    That would be worth videotaping, I think.
    "Most people find change in their dryer, I find bullets"- My wife

    I will remember that if the monsterous creature is within clubbing range, it is a tight situation, and start clubbing. This is true even if my firearm still works. No reason not to club and shoot at the same time.

    Whacking: The redistribution or impairment of biological functions intended to eliminate intercellular cooperation within a sentient organism.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    367
    This thread has reminded me of an article from American Rifleman that ran sometime in the past year. (If anyone keeps back-issues, would appreciate your finding the article, scanning it, and posting it to this thread.)

    The article was written by the director of the D-Day Museum in New Orleans. It was about his personal experiences exfiltrating after the hurricane. Goes something like this: He and his wife lived in a high-rise apartment building and were loading their car. It was sitting outside the building, locked but stuffed with their goods. They came down for the last time to find a group of thugs gathered around the car trying to decide whether to break in and steal the stuff, or steal the whole car. The thugs were armed.

    Fortunately, both he and his wife had weapons. He was carrying an AK (interesting choice) and his bug-out bag. They went to guns ...

    I'll wait for someone to post the article rather than rely on my memory for the rest of the story and his conclusions.

  10. #50
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    May 2000
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    He was carrying an AK (interesting choice) and his bug-out bag

    Well. Reality speaks. Yes please lets get the info!!
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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