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  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
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    44,911
    Ok, so we do what then.................
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    3,323
    I believe that a civilian (at least a WT civilian who will be well stocked up) ending up in a situation where ammo and mag supply was critical is somewhat remote. I don't envision us going out without at least a hundred plus rounds already in mags.

    However, if one envisions potential of needing a large amount of ammo and you are limited in amount you can carry or transport, then I believe chose an AR over AK. A loaded AK mag is probably close to twice the weight of a similar capacity AR loaded mag. Ammo conservation via saving partial mag is one thing but bringing enough ammo to the fight would seem more important.

    Now I would not be against saving ammo via picking up partial mags on the ground, but my first priority if I was being fired at and ran dry or simply wanted to exchange mag for full mag would be to get weapon back in firing condition. Yes if I am under cover might be able to safely put mag in pocket. But that can also be tough if you are behind cover in the mud, etc. and want to move as little as possible. But if under cover I could probably pick up mag from the ground later.

    As for mag in the mud, yes they could get lost in the mud, but if I found them I could clean mags or at least wipe off rounds and use to top off other mag when break in the fighting. And with light AR mags not much weight is added by having all ammo in mags, so there would be no need to worry about mag filled with mud on the ground. If you can get it wipe off rounds and forget about the mag they were in.

    But this thread has got me thinking. I am tending to think bag for loaded mags - never put used mags, empty or partially loaded in this bag. Let old mags hit the ground. If you get a chance put old mags anywhere but in your bag for fully loaded, clean mags.

    If we are talking New Orleans situation I wonder just how many fire fights you can expect before you reach the safety of the Hyatt bar.
    Last edited by jack76590; 05-29-2006 at 08:38 PM.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    192

    Default Rocket scientist I am not

    If your a doing a DA (direct action) sort of fight, run through your house, and kill everybody, and if you don't have time to save it just drop it and get it later. If your outdoors and probably not coming back, stick it in the back pocket of your jeans and put it back in your carry system later, in Afghanistan you aren't getting more mags, a lot of times it's too remote. In Iraq you might, but you could fire all ten mags and say, wow I'm glad i carried those extra bandoliers. Situation dictates, use common sense, the guy who does that usually wins gunfights anyway.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    3,323
    Quote Originally Posted by LMGBeliever
    If your a doing a DA (direct action) sort of fight, run through your house, and kill everybody, and if you don't have time to save it just drop it and get it later. If your outdoors and probably not coming back, stick it in the back pocket of your jeans and put it back in your carry system later, in Afghanistan you aren't getting more mags, a lot of times it's too remote. In Iraq you might, but you could fire all ten mags and say, wow I'm glad i carried those extra bandoliers. Situation dictates, use common sense, the guy who does that usually wins gunfights anyway.
    Agree that a soldier who can only be resupplied with ammo not mags should consider strongly saving his mags or he may go out in the field the next day with a lot of loose ammo. But a civilian in the US will probably have no more trouble resupplying himself with mags than with ammo. Again I believe New Orleans is a good example. Civilian survives the madness for a short time and is safe, the US is normal and UPS is operating. Now if you envision a continued fight for civilians, living off the land, etc, then I guess may be more likely to find ammo then mags. I am thinking here of situation similar to the movie "Red Dawn", which I find highly unlikely.

    Good point and I think it highlights difference between civilian vs. military needs and procedures.
    Last edited by jack76590; 05-29-2006 at 09:00 PM.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    229
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe Suarez
    A question for you guys...and something I have seen repeatedly in FOF. Even guys who have been trained (extensively) to read the gun and "know exactly" when to do a lightning fast "Speed Load" fail to repeat this when they are in a FOF drill. Why do we think we will be able to tell the diff between a malfunction and an empty gun?
    Airsoft and Simms don't have the same recoil impulse that they are tuned to.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Anna, TX
    Posts
    1,407
    Quote Originally Posted by CRUEL HAND LUKE
    Now, if you are caught in the open, shot at by a superior number of assailants, then keeping the rifle operating (loaded) will obviously take precedence over retaining mags, BUT that is a little more likely in downtown Bagdad than downtown Chattanooga!
    Actually that sounds like strut night during Riverbend...

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cheney, WA
    Posts
    2,053

    Default Envelope

    I gotta go along with Sam Spade. I am trying to visualize a civilian rifle engagement, and am having trouble. Considering where I live, the most likely scenario is a couple of whacked out teenage drunks during hunting season shooting at my blaze orange jacket because they think it's funny. We can put that scenario aside, it doesn't apply here.

    By the way, I am a very thrifty guy descended from a bunch of German farmers (and one Jewish Great Great Grand Mother) it goes against my grain to drop mags. We were yelled at for wasting dirt when I was a kid, how are you going to teach me to drop a mag as though they grew on trees.

    So what is likely? What is the envelope? Oh, and I think it is quite fair if I have the rifle and the other guy only has a pistol.

    God bless and y'all be mindful out there.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    516
    An armed civilian needs to train like they are fighting in a 3rd world country without any provision for re-supply. Magazines on the deck are a mistake. If you train mag changes pistol or rifle the way Gabe advocates, you lose nothing in terms of speed. The key word is train... A natural disaster or riot is a situation where you have absolutely no idea when you will be able to re-supply. Every round counts and is relevant.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,407
    OK, what are the likely potential types of civilian rifle confrontations?

    1. Single shooter, deranged or criminal or terrorist, in otherwise normal conditions, probably away from your abode.
    2. Multiple shooters, brigands, likely abnormal conditions (riot, natural disaster, Lucifer's Hammer), at your abode.
    3. Multiple shooters, brigands, likely abnormal conditions (riot, natural disaster, Lucifer's Hammer), away from your abode.

    Of the three, #3 is the only one where mag retention is an issue. Within #3, with the exception of Lucifer's Hammer, you are probably in an E & E mode from the event or gathering up a relative or neighbor to "fort up" or E & E when the confrontation occurs. In either of those cases, you have additional mags/ammo in your vehicle or at your abode to cover the loss of a few. Once outside the event, resupply should not be a problem.

    That leaves a Lucifer's Hammer event as the only situation where maintaining mags is critical.

    Additions, etc.
    "Many men are able, most aren't willing"
    J.B. Books

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    5,436
    Building on what Guantes posted:

    Most likely, I see a civilian rifle fight as being a hot-rod pistol fight. Something went bump in the night, or I see a confrontation coming, and I have time. So, I grab the rifle out of the closet or the trunk. Engagement distances 0 to 25 yards, 1 to 3 BGs.

    Second possibility is defense/escape for SHTF. Most of the natural disaster fights ought to mirror what I wrote above. You're still going to be fighting robbers and assassins, just without the usual civil conditions around you. Those BGs are still trying to close to bad-breath distance to be able to get your stuff. They might try to snipe you first, but we really don't have a lot of data on that.

    Most remote possibility is the infamous TEOTWAWKI. While Lucifer's Hammer (thought I was the only geek around) is pretty unlikely, people who travel to unstable regions (missionaries?) could find themselves in an E&E under truly adverse conditions. I see resupply under those conditions as coming off the bodies of your adversaries, if at all.

    Regardless: So there I am, with rifle and 30 rounds. I can engage half a dozen targets with 5 rifle rounds each before I run out. I do that, and now I'm dry. And I'm still in a fight. As an alternative, maybe I'm trying to break contact during my E&E, so I go cyclic and run during the lull I've created. (A one-man Australian peel, or maybe me and a partner.)

    These seem to be truly bad situations. IMO, rapid reload is the order of the day. Magazine on the deck seems to be almost a "so what?" at this stage of the game.

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