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  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Beyond The Wall
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    Oh....btw....anyone with a 40 SIG that they feel is outdated...I know a guy that will find them a good home. Same for the step brother in 357 SIG
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    NWFL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Bell's on Mannheim RD?

    Yes, that was it. They had a range there I used. I worked on week ends one summer.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Somewhere in the Appalachians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    The whole point is to make more product in less time and space. This is where the newer machinery excels. Somethings wear also and maintenance is needed.
    The first complaint or really comment I heard about antiquated Clot tooling was about 1974 when I worked at suburban Chicago area gunstore called Bells. It was the largest vendor of guns in those days in Cook County. One of owners told me he had toured the Colt plant and observed that the machinery was old.
    In my shop, I have a lathe date-stamped 1945, and a mill that's maybe 20 years younger(both are older than me). Functionally, both are the same. Provided I have the material, and given the size constraints of my machines... there is nothing I can't make. It's a hobby for me, and I use the machines mostly to work on my old cars, but I could make a 1911 were I so inclined.

    A CNC machine with CAD programming would make things infinitely easier, but it doesn't change the end product.

    As far as "old tooling" goes in manufacturing, mine is ancient. A factory with CNC tooling and CAD programs from 20 years ago is old. But for us, on the receiving end, it makes no difference functionally. If CZ has 20 year "old" tooling, it doesn't show in their fit and finish, and it certainly isn't reflected in their price.

    ETA: These days, a quality 1911 is essentially a custom piece. I'd rather buy one made by the hands of an old man with a long white beard, than a kid with a computer. Just like you'd rather someone like me rebuilt the engine and transmission on your classic Toyota land cruiser, than some kid at the local Toyota dealer.
    Last edited by H60DoorGunner; 01-23-2021 at 09:19 PM.
    Isaiah 54:17

    Deus dea traballo, dixo o enterrador.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,275
    Is sig dropping the pistols in .40 and .357? Or are they dropping manufacturing the ammo? Seems strange they would stop making the pistols chambered in their own caliber. However I could see it in the ammo manufacturing to try to bump up production of 9mm and .223/5.56.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
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    16,311
    Quote Originally Posted by H60DoorGunner View Post
    In my shop, I have a lathe date-stamped 1945, and a mill that's maybe 20 years younger(both are older than me). Functionally, both are the same. Provided I have the material, and given the size constraints of my machines... there is nothing I can't make. It's a hobby for me, and I use the machines mostly to work on my old cars, but I could make a 1911 were I so inclined.

    A CNC machine with CAD programming would make things infinitely easier, but it doesn't change the end product.

    As far as "old tooling" goes in manufacturing, mine is ancient. A factory with CNC tooling and CAD programs from 20 years ago is old. But for us, on the receiving end, it makes no difference functionally. If CZ has 20 year "old" tooling, it doesn't show in their fit and finish, and it certainly isn't reflected in their price.

    ETA: These days, a quality 1911 is essentially a custom piece. I'd rather buy one made by the hands of an old man with a long white beard, than a kid with a computer. Just like you'd rather someone like me rebuilt the engine and transmission on your classic Toyota land cruiser, than some kid at the local Toyota dealer.
    I am sure you have an excellent shop.
    Question is just how many pistol frames or other parts can you turnout in per shift and the cost. How many employee hours are needed per unit produced.
    Of course one can do precision work with older equipment and apparently the same is true of modern equipment.
    A friend of mine that does it for a living has CNC equipment and also three phase electrical service, started out with a lathe that was originally powered by belt drive from a factory steam engine where one engine powered everything in a building. It was set up with an electric motor later. You use the right tools for the tasks at hand. We are talking about Colt machinery and not CZ. I have no idea what equipment colt has or how old it may be. I am not a machinist and so I will accept the word of people that are in the industry and knowledgeable on the factory floor of modern gun factories.
    There are not many factories that will brag about having old machinery.
    As far as nothing too big to work on. You must have quite a shop. I have worked where the shafts used in the dynamos for steam powered power plants were made. They were first forged and them machined and there are bigger things then that getting made. My friend, the biggest thing he has is a lathe that was shipped from subic bay in the Philippines that he picked up at action from NAS Pensacola. The bed must be 18 ft long, but industrially it is small. The wood of the pallet was some sort of valuable tropical wood.

    The mining industry uses big things and think of the power plants and propulsion systems of very large ships and rail engines.


  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Somewhere in the Appalachians.
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    3,735
    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    I am sure you have an excellent shop.
    Question is just how many pistol frames or other parts can you turnout in per shift and the cost. How many employee hours are needed per unit produced.
    Of course one can do precision work with older equipment and apparently the same is true of modern equipment.
    A friend of mine that does it for a living has CNC equipment and also three phase electrical service, started out with a lathe that was originally powered by belt drive from a factory steam engine where one engine powered everything in a building. It was set up with an electric motor later. You use the right tools for the tasks at hand. We are talking about Colt machinery and not CZ. I have no idea what equipment colt has or how old it may be. I am not a machinist and so I will accept the word of people that are in the industry and knowledgeable on the factory floor of modern gun factories.
    There are not many factories that will brag about having old machinery.
    As far as nothing too big to work on. You must have quite a shop. I have worked where the shafts used in the dynamos for steam powered power plants were made. They were first forged and them machined and there are bigger things then that getting made. My friend, the biggest thing he has is a lathe that was shipped from subic bay in the Philippines that he picked up at action from NAS Pensacola. The bed must be 18 ft long, but industrially it is small. The wood of the pallet was some sort of valuable tropical wood.

    The mining industry uses big things and think of the power plants and propulsion systems of very large ships and rail engines.

    I think you misunderstood. I certainly can't build things that big haha.
    Isaiah 54:17

    Deus dea traballo, dixo o enterrador.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Manistee MI
    Posts
    1,398
    I am curious if this will just be temporary. With the demand so high right now, they might want their operation only making what sells the most right now.

    Soli Deo Gloria
    Abortion is sacrificing your child on the alter of convenience....Adrian Rogers
    Soli Deo Gloria

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    In a positive state of mind
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    3,971
    "Question is just how many pistol frames or other parts can you turnout in per shift and the cost. How many employee hours are needed per unit produced."

    The real question is are we talking mass production or are we talking production for demand?

    As a side note, I'll point out that the VC during the Vietnam War, and the Israelis in their fight for independence produced weapons and ammunition in their underground (literally and figuratively) armaments factories.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Exiled in Texas
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    7,357
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuvuah View Post
    I am curious if this will just be temporary. With the demand so high right now, they might want their operation only making what sells the most right now.

    Soli Deo Gloria
    That's my suspicion, as well. The market is a buying frenzy right now, but it won't last. Everybody in the firearms industry knows that it's feast or famine, and right now the feast is on. Sig can sell anything they make right now. If they can streamline the operation by focusing on fewer calibers, and that added efficiency allows them to increase overall production numbers, then they can take advantage of the current hysteria. When things slow down, they can retool and go back to providing a more diverse portfolio.

    On the CZ/Colt acquisition, I have no doubt that CZ will manufacture superior firearms. The lingering business question is whether hipsters will still be fascinated with CZ after CZ takes over the firearms equivalent of Oldsmobile. Time will tell.
    Virtute et Armis

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