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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    472
    I use the original leverevolution ammo in my guide gun with good success. It is fairly accurate and hits hard enough for deer. I prefer to shoot deer in the neck/head area and they don’t seem to enjoy that very much. The recoil reminds me of a .30-30 or similar.

    I also have some Buffalo Bore ammo that I hunt Yeti with. It’s a motherfucker to shoot so I don’t get to the Himalayas like I used to. In fact, just thinking about it makes my shoulder hurt. It kicks like the devil but I’m a man so I have to have at least a box in my ammo cabinet at all times.

    As as far as nasty killing ammo, it all is the same to me as I don’t want to be shot with anything.
    Last edited by Badger; 10-31-2020 at 06:32 AM.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,773
    So my first question is nasty armor what???

    People, Deer, Black Bear, Grizzly/ Kodiak bears?

    Mission drives equipment and ammo choices.

    Recoil is subjective for each individual. Personally only find the heaviest loads like the Garrett 540 Hammerheads and the Buffalo Bore heavy loads to be an issue. But then I also shoot a 470 NE for giggles.

    One of my 45/70’s is a Marlin Guide Gun and I find the porting really helps with muzzle rise and shot to shot times.

    For anti personnel I would be loading someone’s light jacketed bullet in the 260-325 range as fast as I could handle it.

    For deer and Black Bear pretty much any now cowboy action load will do and I prefer 295 gr hard cast with as big a meplat as will reliably feed.

    For the largest bears or buffalo I would be running someone’s hard cast bunkers in the 500-540gr range again with the widest meplat that would reliably feed. These heavy loads will give you a through and through on a Bison or break both shoulders of a big bear. I have also talked with Africa’s PH’s who have seen them go clean through a Cape Buffalo.

    So define the mission as it helps with selection of equipment.
    I carry two kinds of trauma kits. One for fixing it and one for causing it.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,689
    A note on cowboy action loads. The ammo that is specifically loaded for cowboy action shooting is designed to splatter on a silhouette target. The rules of that game call for soft lead (specific hardness numbers spelled out) and velocity no more than or less than a given spread. It's still lethal on a lot of game animals but it's not specifically killing ammo. I like shooting 45-70 cowboy action loads but it's not really what the OP asked about.

    CAS is a kind of "bullet golf." I have no beef with it or any shooting sport, but ammo designed for a set of sporting rules is what it is.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,773
    For the new shooter the CAS ammo is a great way to learn to run the gun and how to shoot it fast. Once you are comfortable with it you can move up to more “adult” ammo.

    One thing you will will
    learn with the soft lead bullets of CAS ammo is the fun of getting lead out of the bore.
    I carry two kinds of trauma kits. One for fixing it and one for causing it.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Nearly Free State of Arizona
    Posts
    337
    Very interesting topic of discussion. I see two major lines of discussion: (1) the shift from killing being largely velocity dependent to being largely mass dependent, and (2) the efficacy of the .45-70 in particular.

    On the first point, there is quite a bit of literature and research. For rifle rounds, the shift appears to take place around 125 grains and moderate velocities (circa 2400 fps). Historically, people attribute this shift to the 6.5 Mauser cartridge. Smaller bullets than the 6.5 Mauser largely depend on higher velocities to increase killing efficacy and. Larger diameter bullets rely more heavily on mass. There is an endless amount of literature regarding this phenomenon so far as hunting goes. For dealing with two legged critters, I would ascertain that the 300 BO, 30-30 Win, and 7.62x39 act as that pivot point. This is why many call Into question the efficacy of the 5.56, especially in short barrels and lower velocities (easy fix, be accurate and add additional bullets as necessary). That said, in a lever gun shooting a rifle cartridge, and caliber above 30-30 would be sufficient regardless (32 Win, 35 REM, 38-55, 375 Win, 45-70) due to mass and bullet type means less and velocity just has to remain moderate.

    For the 45-70 in particular, nearly all loadings have sufficient lethality. Now, the question is how to optimize it. If you want to stretch the range out to 150-175 yards, the lighter, spitzer leverevolution rounds make a lot of sense. If you are worried about armor or light cover (cars and soft armor), think heavy bullets driven fast - the Garrett load, Buffalo Bore heavy loads or the HSM Bear Loads. Those are all stopped by soft armor, but may still prove lethal given the energy transfer. They also work beautifully through auto glass and car doors.

    The lever action can be an amazing defensive weapon. However, you must employ it within its usable envelope and operate it like a shotgun (shoot one, load one). In rifle calibers, it is eminently effective. In pistol calibers it is just a PCC - there is no mysticism, it is a pistol replacement with exactly the same use cases, but with added accuracy (extra points of contact for stability) and slightly increased lethality (driven by higher velocities).
    “How can I shoot people? Shooting people is easy. It is the simple application of the fundamentals of marksmanship. The hard part is ensuring that I have the physical strength to prevail, the moral strength to know when it is right to kill, and the mental strength to articulate the aftermath such that I maintain my freedom while they experience what comes next in the afterlife.”

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,773
    There are are bears and there are BEARS.

    The former are black bears and similar sized big things. These can be dealt with by most any 405gr bullet although my preference would be something hardcast and with as wide a meplat as would feed reliably.

    Then there are BEARS. These would be grizzlies and the bruins found on Kodiak Island. For these I would want the super heavy loads from Garret, BB, or HSM. If I was handloadinf it would be the heaviest and widest meplat hard cast bullet that would feed reliably.

    My other choice would be a stainless steel double rifle in 470 NE with an RMR on it. Butch Searcy o my built 12 of these and I actually have access to one owned by my best friend who I also hunt in Africa with.
    I carry two kinds of trauma kits. One for fixing it and one for causing it.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,934
    Stretch it out to 175 yards? Crap... last fall I was shooting 405 hard casts at 300 yards.
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  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    1,773
    The 45/70 can be stretched well beyond 150 yards without much issue. I know DF regularly plays with his at 300 yds with 495’s and has not had any problems. I have put down several deer out around 250ish with no issues and no recovered bullets.

    Are we all going to be dropping war chiefs like Billy Dixon at the Second Battle of Adobe Walls? Yeah NO. That is not what this 147 year old cartridge excels at.
    I carry two kinds of trauma kits. One for fixing it and one for causing it.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Midwest
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    2,588
    In my neck o' the woods, the 325gr Leverevolution is more than enough for any critter. It also happens to be what my Marlin likes best, accuracy wise.

    Still, I have a hankerin' for a .444 Marlin.
    Waitin' for a squeeze...

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  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasher View Post
    There are are bears and there are BEARS.
    Although let's remember that nowadays there is (in some places, anyway) a pretty significant size overlap between blackies and grizz. When they get up to seven or eight hundred pounds...

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