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  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Arizona's Desert
    From Winchester:

    "The original 30 WCF load pushed a 160-grain bullet 1,970 fps. As better powders were created, velocity gradually increased until reaching today’s velocities of around 2,330 fps with a 170-grain bullet and..."

    I think our differences go back to the Genesis of the discussion, which links to an earlier Suarez Intl. article. This article opened the discussion of the 30-30's potential as a low profile urban fighting rifle and highlighted performance enhancements essential for that mission.

    The 30-30 is my California travel status vehicle rifle, a low profile, legal, urban rifle that will survive a Border Patrol road block vehicle search. Not an implement of the harvest.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2006
    A commercial 30-30, 170 grain factory load will push that 170 grain bullet out the muzzle at about 2330 fps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Solothurn View Post
    I get 2138 fps from a 20-inch barrel over my chronograph. The jacketed bullet will have a lil flatter trajectory, but a 170 grain lead flat nose at 1700 gives better performance on game than the JSP factory load.
    I think 2330 is for the 150 grain load that used to be listed at 2400 fps and as a rule most factory loads are usually a little slower than the official company listed velocity.
    For the 7.62x39 a 154 gr combloc load is about a 2050-2200 fps with a 16 inch barrel depending on ammo bath and rifle.
    I suspect people could hot load the '94, but for a combat gun it is not a good idea. The design is not a turnbolt breech lock up and primary extraction is not super strong. A hundred feet per second more is not so really important.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Cacti Rat View Post
    To throw a little perspective in the mix.
    • A commercial 30-30, 170 grain factory load will push that 170 grain bullet out the muzzle at about 2330 fps.
    • As a general rule contemporary commercial factory 30-30 rounds are intentionally produced a bit on the soft side due to the existence of relic guns still in use today (There are some exceptions). Then original 1894 commercial loading pushed a 160 grain bullet out the barrel at 1976 fps.
    • Common velocities for a .30 cal. nineteenth century black powder round was between 1200-1600 fps.

    By reducing loads to velocities that are closer to the antiquated black powder that preceded modern smokeless powder, you do get better accuracy, but at the cost of performance.

    We saw this with the old PPC crowd. They could squeak out maximum accuracy potential out of a .38 Special revolver by loading hollow based wad cutters behind 2.5 grains of Bullsey, but at the end of the day, those cops would never carry that load for duty. Those who are armed for serious reasons won't trade off the advantage of an acceptable accuracy of a high performance 125 grain +P service round for the optimal accuracy of a lead HBWC?

    With regards to the 30-30; this is a pretty performance challenged caliber as it is. I think there should be a caveat in this discussion; accurizing the 30-30 is an interesting subject, but should only be considered when this can be done without significantly diminishing performance.
    Comparing an anemic .38 sp target round to a 30 caliber round that rapidly expands going just under 2,000 FPS isn’t even the same ballpark. Would anyone denigrate a 7.62x39 round that weight 160-190 grains and was very accurate?

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Solothurn View Post
    It's an Arsenal Molds 311-170 RF. I'm using Harbor Freight powder, but I think they quit carrying it. When that runs out I plan to get Smoke's powder, prolly in Zombie Green!

    Attachment 60417
    I haven't used it on game but a bud's daughter shot her first deer, a spike, at 30 yards broadside, a little far back. It fell down a small mountain for about 200 yards, leaving a large blood trail. Hit the back of a lung, blew apart the liver, and got into the guts a little. Baseball-size exit wound.
    Fantastic! Every corn cruncher that’s been taken with these “accurized” 30-30s and the .44 trapper have been bang flop. And Smokes powder is fantastic ten times more consistent than harbor freight and he’s a good guy! I love being able to color code ammo for hunting/ target/ varmint- alloy - ect.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Arizona's Desert
    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    I think 2330 is for the 150 grain load .
    You're right. I didn't question it because my data source was Winchester.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Southeast United States
    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Zen View Post
    I've read and listened to interviews with guys who make barrels and build rifles -- Like McMillan and Krieger -- who contend that the greatest danger to a barrel is the shooter who cleans it too often or incorrectly. They also hold that "breaking in" barrels is a myth or habit that serves no purpose other than to risk damaging the barrel, specifically the crown. Last interview I saw with Krieger, he said "just go shoot the thing."

    Of course, I don't shoot long range anything, just play around, so take this for what it's worth.
    I happened to stumble across that email from Gale McMillan regarding the "worth" of breaking in barrels. BLUF, there ain't none. He contends it's a rumor started by a fellow barrel maker who wanted to sell more barrels. Don't know nuthin' about that part of the discussion, but his thesis on barrel wear makes for interesting reading.

    From: Gale McMillan <" gale">
    Newsgroups: rec.guns
    Subject: Re: Barrel break-in necessary?
    Date: 7 Jan 1997 20:40:25 -0500

    Mike Sumner wrote:
    > ...

    As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels
    with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the
    prescribed break in method A very large number would do more harm than
    help. The reason you hear of the help in accuracy is because if you
    chamber barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting
    clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the
    rifling. It takes from 1 to 2 hundred rounds to burn this bur out and
    the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle
    barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories
    let them go longer than any competent smithe would. Another tidbit to
    consider, Take a 300Win Mag. that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds.
    Use 10% of it up with your break in procedure for ever 10 barrels the
    barrel maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the
    break in. no wonder barrel makers like to see this. Now when you flame
    me on this please include what you think is happening to the inside of
    your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

    Gale McMillan
    NBSRA IBS,FCSA and NRA Life Member

    From: Gale McMillan <>
    Newsgroups: rec.guns
    Subject: Re: Good barrels for Rem 700 in .308?
    Date: 10 Feb 1996 12:50:53 -0500

    Consider this, every round shot in breaking in a barrel is one round off
    the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical
    reason of what happens during break in firing. In other words to the
    number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the
    barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by
    shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off
    with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden a
    friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who
    come up with the break in method. He may think he has come upon
    something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel
    that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that
    deteriorates until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what
    physically takes place during break in to modify the barrel then I may
    change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel doesn't change
    because of the break in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open
    to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just
    someone's opinion forget it.

    Gale McMillan

    From: Gale McMillan <" gale">
    Newsgroups: rec.guns
    Subject: Re: Remington 700 break in
    Date: 8 Aug 1997 00:01:07 -0400

    Arthur Sprague wrote:

    # On 29 Jul 1997 22:50:26 -0400, (John W. Engel)
    # wrote:
    # #This is how (some) benchrester break in barrels, and it does work.
    # #The mechanism is that the bore has pores in it (microns in size).
    # #If you simply shoot a box or two through it without cleaning, the
    # #pores fill up with gilding metal, and stay that way. If you
    # #follow the above procedure (and they mean *clean* between shots!),
    # #the pores are "smoothed over" with each successive shot. A barrel
    # #correctly broken in is MUCH easier to clean than one that is
    # #not. If it is a good quality tube, it will also be more accurate.
    # #Regards,
    # #whit
    # Well, the range hours here are quite limited. On my first trip I
    # managed to fire a whole fourteen rounds, with a thorough cleaning
    # after each round. It couldn't hurt! Fun gun! Difficult to think of
    # .223 as a battle round after experience with .30-06 and .45ACP, but it
    # surely going to be a pleasure to shoot.
    # Thanks to all for their advice.

    This is total hogwash! It all got started when a barrel maker that I
    know started putting break in instructions in the box with each barrel
    he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help
    and his reply was If they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel
    that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just
    figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point it
    defiantly will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a
    fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset bench rest world
    records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at
    one time) along with HighPower,Silloett,smallbore national and world
    records and my instructions were to clean as often as posable preferably
    every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel
    before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I
    see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from
    normal wear and tear.I am even reading about people recommending
    breaking in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the
    Gale Mc.
    Redneck Zen
    "Be careful what you get good at."

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Hell the only sling studs that where workable where the type that fit in between the barrel band, not on the tube, 94's where not meant to slung. Fix or redo the crown, get some JB bore paste and good brass brushes, scrub the hell out of the barrel, forget the light weight crap and stick with the 170 grain loads{if its a pre-64},search for a steel Redfield or Lyman peep sight, and go for it. They are not target rifles nor meant to be shot like one, track the game,butt hits should pocket, fire, repeat as needed
    All animals except man know that the ultimate of life is to enjoy it.

    Samuel Butler


  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by H60DoorGunner View Post
    The Model 94's biggest drawback, IMO, are the horrible Buckhorn style sights.
    Wasn't there some old trick to using them as a rangefinder? If the wings frame the bad guys shoulder he's thus-and-so far away, etc.?

    I bet Mr. James knows.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Arizona's Desert
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunstore Commando View Post
    Wasn't there some old trick to using them as a rangefinder? If the wings frame the bad guys shoulder he's thus-and-so far away, etc.?

    I bet Mr. James knows.
    I use the front sight.

    The width of the front sight on my M94 is the width of an IPSIC target (18 inches) at 200 yards.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Old Lawman's Advice on Lever-guns and Buckhorn Sights
    C.E. Harris

    I was taught how to use buckhorns by the late LTC Ellis Lea, USA (Ret.) Ellis was a West Virginia State Trooper prior to entering the US Army during WWII and used the 94 Winchester on the job as a lawman. He was on the first team of US advisors which went into South Vietnam to perform an internal security survey for then-President Eisenhower. Later he was a law enforcement instructor for the USAID Office of Public Safety and he also taught small arms and small unit tactics for various US government agencies and foreign clients as directed by USAID.

    Using the Winchester Model 94 lever-action in .30-30 as the example, the rifle comes zeroed from the factory for 3 shots to strike within a 3 inch circle drawn tangent at 6:00 inside a 6-inch black aiming bull at 50 yards. Sight picture is taking a "fine" bead with the front sight drawn all the way into the small rear notch and taking a 6:00 hold on the bull, using factory loads, with the sight elevator set on its lowest notch.

    Each step on the rear sight elevator increases zero range by approximately 50 yards, so the raising the sight into the second notch with the correct combination of front and rear sight height should be 100 yards, the third notch 150 yards, the 4th notch 200. This again is using a "fine" bead, drawn down completely into the small notch, taking a 6:00 hold.

    When using the buckhorns for quick combat range estimation, the shoulders of an FBI silhouette or Army "E" target should just fill the width of the small notch at 100 yards. If you can see daylight around the shoulders, alter your sight picture so that the bead "floats" above the fine notch. When the bead is approximately leveled with the first shoulder inside the buckhorn above the inner notch, point of impact approximately coincides with the center of the bead at 200 yards. Proper sight picture then is to hold for center of mass of the silhouette.

    At longer ranges raising the front sight so that the bead "floats" between the top ears of the semi-buckhorn sight, the bead subtends the height of the silhouette and provides correct elevation to approximately 300 yards or meters. Using correct sight picture with good initial zero, firing factory loads, a trained rifleman can average 80% hits or better on the Army "E" silhouette at 200 yards and 60% hits or better at 300 yards. Fired in this manner, a typical .30-30 lever action has similar hit probability to the SKS and is a bit better than typical AK’s beyond 100 yards.

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