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  1. #1
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    Default Flow chart question.

    If we work our way down the chart to "are you the focus of the violence" question, does a threat of violence validate lethal force in the situation like we saw in Rochester ? Assuming intent, ability and opportunity are all present, my first thought is that it does. Im thinking specifically of the groups going into restaurants and confronting diners. Although I would not still be seated in my chair like those who froze and let them walk right up on them, i suspect if i went right to guns as they approached while unarmed (understanding the numbers alone represent a lethal threat), i suspect id be spending many years in prison. Im prepared to do that should keeping these animals from harming me or mine. Looking for specific actions you would take in this particular situation. Thanks

  2. #2
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    I think if there became a precedent for these groups physically harming restaurant patrons, the story would be more clear—much like the argument about protestors closing in around your vehicle.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by krav51 View Post
    "are you the focus of the violence"
    Is yelling and getting in your personal space "violence"?

    If it is not, then how can you artfully handle the problem before it does? Note that handling it does not necessarily mean "defense".

    Also...how can you artfully cause them to escalate to actual violence, thus justifying your reaction?

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  4. #4
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    I've been trying to game scenarios in my head about this stuff. Most of the time, I'm trying to get to a point where people leave me be and I don't have to go to guns, because I don't have time for that. But I'm often gaming in terms of, "How do I set myself up so that on the ubiquitous camera, I've already framed a micro-statement, in the event that the blaster is necessary, and the last step is merely executing the statement in the aftermath?"

    I'm no expert at it, but not yet having violence executed stops the flowchart move to the gun, like Gabe hinted at. The analysis doesn't stop there, and where I would take it would depend on who was with me—get in my girlfriend's face, and I'm going to intervene in a way that might elicit a violent response, even though I was not being violent myself. If that happens, "Deus Vult."

    I'd be trying to frame the scenario with my words to the folks getting in my face, if getting out of the situation isn't reasonable ahead of time (or I get caught on my heels—definitely possible). Lot of using my words to describe their actions, not because I think I can convince a bunch of screaming meanies to leave me alone if they don't want to themselves, but because I can use that to frame my response to someone else later, in the event that things go south.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faramir2 View Post
    I've been trying to game scenarios in my head about this stuff. Most of the time, I'm trying to get to a point where people leave me be and I don't have to go to guns, because I don't have time for that. But I'm often gaming in terms of, "How do I set myself up so that on the ubiquitous camera, I've already framed a micro-statement, in the event that the blaster is necessary, and the last step is merely executing the statement in the aftermath?"

    I'm no expert at it, but not yet having violence executed stops the flowchart move to the gun, like Gabe hinted at. The analysis doesn't stop there, and where I would take it would depend on who was with me—get in my girlfriend's face, and I'm going to intervene in a way that might elicit a violent response, even though I was not being violent myself. If that happens, "Deus Vult."

    I'd be trying to frame the scenario with my words to the folks getting in my face, if getting out of the situation isn't reasonable ahead of time (or I get caught on my heels—definitely possible). Lot of using my words to describe their actions, not because I think I can convince a bunch of screaming meanies to leave me alone if they don't want to themselves, but because I can use that to frame my response to someone else later, in the event that things go south.

    The thing that you and all others need to understand is that they are not listening to you. You could tell them that you are a lawyer defending BLM against the police and it wouldn't register with them. They have selected you by the color of your skin or you simply happen to be the lucky white couple within reach. I don't think its wise to get into specific things, but at that point you have already lost the defense game.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    The thing that you and all others need to understand is that they are not listening to you. You could tell them that you are a lawyer defending BLM against the police and it wouldn't register with them. They have selected you by the color of your skin or you simply happen to be the lucky white couple within reach. I don't think its wise to get into specific things, but at that point you have already lost the defense game.
    To be clear, I am under no illusion that they are listening to me; far from it. Word choice and statements would be for the cameras and Monday morning quarterbackers, while working my way out of the situation.

    I'm by no means opposed to a fight, but frankly, I don't really want to be in one, esp not with a mob. I'm tall, fast, and reasonably good with my hands and feet, but mob still wins that one. The talk would be entirely for framing a possible later legal defense—to build the palisade that justifies my counter-offensive violent response.

    I know that what we're dealing with is beyond the pale (to borrow from one of your articles of a while back). Nevertheless, enough people still believe in the pale that it seems prudent to build my verbal palisade, while knowing when to press the trigger as part of the physical palisade. I know that might not even work, and I am a believer that it is better to be alive rather than dead (although "to live is Christ, and to die is gain," in the long game). I just also like framing the situation to my advantage, in the event I'm in the "Oh, crap" scenario.

  7. #7
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    Step 1: Don't look like food.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkface View Post
    Step 1: Don't look like food.
    Step 2: Make food of anyone who thinks you're food. (And yeah, I know that appears to contradict what I said above about talking through the situation—but because we know they're not listening to us, we make them food.)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faramir2 View Post
    Step 2: Make food of anyone who thinks you're food. (And yeah, I know that appears to contradict what I said above about talking through the situation—but because we know they're not listening to us, we make them food.)
    Dorkface is making a completely different point.

    I'm not sure that the people involved in these provocations have the tuned sense of target selection that "don't look like food" selects against, I'm not sure that these people *really* understand the level of speed, ruthlessness and degree of violence that some here are going to *open* with, but mostly I suspect that at least one of them thinks that being a martyr to the cause might be worth it--except they don't really understand that when you meet the lion you *die*.

    But as a first step it's going to select you out of some really stupid confrontations, and is (arguably) going to make it more likely that confrontations you ARE in are with people who are more serious about doing you harm.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faramir2 View Post
    Step 2: Make food of anyone who thinks you're food. (And yeah, I know that appears to contradict what I said above about talking through the situation—but because we know they're not listening to us, we make them food.)
    Its more than that. There is a a thread of Gabes called the spirt of Uke that is worth a look. I want to say there another by either Gabe or Brent that goes more indepth to the concept of winning an entire fight by just looking your enemy in the eye. I can't find it though.
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