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  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    48,183
    On the communist rioter thing

    The best solutions are proactive rather than reactive.

    And in today's context - Proactive Covert rather than Proactive Overt. Proactive Overt is the Roof Koreans in LA in '92. Proactive Covert hasn't happened by "defenders" yet in modern US Civil History.

    Your strip mall in is the path of the Red Shirts and you have no insurance...think of passive and active countermeasures that might be put into place by you and your neighbors to cause them to change their minds and bypass you. Don't worry about legal or illegal yet...just about anonymity and effectiveness.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #32
    I do believe if the incident commander can tie third party lasing an officer to an active, aggressive act designed to abduct/injure the officer, or remove his weapons to be used against others, a proactive use of lethal force could be used against both parties. The key is going to be the articulation and imminent threat.

    I remember the final exam scenario at Basic SWAT School….. it was a hostage scenario where the hostage taker was behind the hostage as they moved toward a get-away driver and car. The get-away driver and car were just parked there with the vehicle idling - no weapons shown and no aggressive action taken - but several of us (those who graduated) ended up putting a burst of 9mm SIMS into the windshield (and presumably him) so as to remove him from “facilitating the threat.” At the force review which followed we learned to articulate a third parties actions used in concert with a more aggressive foe married them together as both committing the active, aggressive act which could cause death, etc…

    It’s all about how you write it up.

  3. #33
    That’d be an interesting Gabe article: “Shooting the Unarmed.”

    When you can answer this you graduate KWTL with Honors.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Exiled in Texas
    Posts
    7,586
    Virtute et Armis

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    5,142
    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post

    "Anyone who runs...Anyone who stands still...Ya just don't lead 'em so much."
    Warrior for the working day.

    Es una cosa muy seria. --Robert Capa

    "...I rode the range in a Ford V8...Yippy Yi Yo Ki Yay." --Johnny Mercer (as modified)

    "What cannot be remedied must be endured."

    Vale et omnia quae.

    P:20

  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    48,183
    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanNobody View Post
    That’d be an interesting Gabe article: “Shooting the Unarmed.”

    When you can answer this you graduate KWTL with Honors.

    Easy

    1). Are you certain they are Unarmed? Or have they suggested via actions, postures, hand placement or verbal expression that they are armed? A man that says I am going to blow your head of then suddenly reaches into his waistband, at a location commonly used to carry and conceal a firearm, can be taken at his word without waiting for a shot to be fired or even the display of a firearm.

    2). On the laser...the antelope did not see a laser...he saw a man holding a metal object that appeared to be a handgun. The antelope knows that laser sights are commonly used on small pistols to aid in sighting precision shots. Based on the antelope's prior training and experience, his knowledge of firearms, the hand and body position of his attacker, and the fact that he could not see perfectly because the "laser sight" was aimed at his face, he formed the opinion that he was about to be shot in the face.

    Personal experience - Look up musician Donald Myrick. He was selling cocaine and had shown an informant that he had a pistol. SWAT raided his place after seveeral CI's and UC bought cocaine from him. Myrick pointed a fire starter at the point man, my partner in the stack. Based on his prior training and experience in addition to his extensive viet man combat experience, he shot Myrick in the chest with two shots from his Sig P226. Justified because of the perception of the officer.

    Myrick was not shot because he had a firestarter, but because the officer had information Myrick had weapons and because Myrick behaved as if the firestarter was a weapon. Shooting justified by LADA.

    Perception
    Preclusion
    Explanation
    Articulation
    Justification

    As far as anything outside of that...historically there have been times when deadly force has been used without attribution on those bringing force of numbers against a point of contention. But that does not fall under the purview of KWTL
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

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