Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11
  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    47,892

    Default A GREAT DISCUSSION ON ITOSU's TEN PRECEPTS

    Iain Abernethy writes on Itosu's precepts, as well as discusses the old ways versus the new sporting ways of martial arts. Good stuff. One day I hope we can bring Iain over here for some work with those of us with a Karate background.

    Read and discuss

    http://www.physicalarts.com/en/knowl...-of-anko-itosu
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    47,892
    Example -

    Precept 1 contains the line “[karate] is not intended to be used against a single assailant but instead as a way of avoiding injury by using the hands and feet should one by any chance be confronted by a villain or ruffian.” This makes it clear that the original karate was not for a “square go” or consensual fight against a single opponent or fellow karateka, but instead for civilian self-protection. As a modern day martial artist I think it is important (and fun) to train for both environments, but it is essential to understand that a “square go” and self-protection do not utilise the same methods. What works well in one area won't necessarily work well in the other. Itosu obviously understood the difference between the two as he marks the difference in his first precept. As examples of these differences: closing the gap, skilled footwork, guards, feints, and varied combinations are commonplace in a consensual fight but are irrelevant for civilian self-protection; which is why such methods do not appear in kata.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    33

    Default Have too comment

    Thank you Gabe for posting. I have so little to contribute over the years to this site, but have learned much, agains thank you for all that have taught me. This information did more for me today than I can properly describe, for me it is inspiring, encouraging, real, meaningful and fed into me in a way words cannot describe. More of these kind of threads would be good for many here.
    Psalm 127:1
    Unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    981
    I have been watching Iain's stuff for awhile. He is pretty squared away.
    I am in a sunny place full of shady people

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    621
    I am perplexed, though...how can you study kata without the bunkai? Knowing the bunkai (or multiple bunkai) for each move is how you calibrate it to ensure correct execution.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    47,892
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike OTDP View Post
    I am perplexed, though...how can you study kata without the bunkai? Knowing the bunkai (or multiple bunkai) for each move is how you calibrate it to ensure correct execution.

    Modern Karate people are excessively competition focused and for winning a kata competition, or a sparring match, you do not need to know any of that...or even know how to fight on the street.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    6,518
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike OTDP View Post
    I am perplexed, though...how can you study kata without the bunkai? Knowing the bunkai (or multiple bunkai) for each move is how you calibrate it to ensure correct execution.
    Knowing the application is obviously best. Of course followed by pressure testing with partners.

    But reality is that you are not always going to know the application. Particularly for a student on the early part of their study. The most important thing is to know how to PRACTICE. Of course that requires having a teacher that understands the method...But even an imperfect understanding of the method yields results by simply doing the work. I practiced kata for a lot of years with a relatively shallow understanding but it’s still provided me with a lot of benefit. Of course it is better to begin with a teacher who has a deeper understanding, but those teachers do not grow on trees. You do the best you can with what you have at the time and always search for more answers.

    This brings up a related point. I often see this phrase: “Practice doesn’t make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.” This phrase is undoubtedly true, however it annoys the shit out of me. The reality is that when we learn something we are going to screw it up for a long time until we get it right. And even after you get it right it can still be better. I hear that phrase from students who use it as an excuse to avoid doing the work. And I also hear it from instructors who are overly obsessed with perfection; they offer so much correction that the student doesn’t really get to practice. So yes, we want to work towards perfection, but mostly it’s about showing up and doing the fucking work. I prefer the phrase “Shut up and sweat.” :)
    Last edited by Brent Yamamoto; 07-16-2020 at 01:56 PM.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Pistol Groundfighting, Texas

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    47,892
    So more...

    Karate is for fighting. Fighting means hitting and breaking shit on people. If your Karate doesn't do that, call it something else because its not Karate. Period. Now on training, if you are beyond the 18-30 year old category, and have a life (other than training for your next sport fight), your training needs to reflect that. That means that all-out fighting will not be a high percentage of your training pie. So yeah...MMA is cool, but even MMA guys train the same damn concepts as true karate people. In fact, if you look at "old school Karate", and it was being done in modern workout gear, you would swear they guys that you are watching were doing some form of MMA. They work movement patterns and kicks and punches and maneuvers alone for physical memorization. Then they hit things for power delivery skills. Then they work technical drills with a partner with varying degrees of pressure.

    Hey! Anyone remember that from FOF training?

    Now here is the thing...I have always taught the Why Concept, Memorize the How Methods, and then Physical Application. That is how Karate should be taught and how those who know about violence personally will teach it. If you have a propellerhead student that wants to know all the concepts and all the theories long before there is any physical memorization, you end up with weak useless Karate. So yeah...after I tell you the why of a method, the student needs to be quiet and copy what I show him. Memorize it, make it reflexive, then lets pressure test it.

    All good skills require patience and focus..things many Americans in Karate (as well as the gun world) simply don't have.

    Study deeply on these matters grasshopper.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    6,518
    This might sound pedantic but that's not the intent...

    "Bunkai" is generally understood to mean "Application". If we're just discussing how it's vitally important to understand what the movements mean, that's fine. But bunkai actually means "Analysis". I think that's an important distinction here. (Incidentally the correct term for application is "Oyo"...but it's not my point to be the "well actually" guy.)

    "Analysis" is a study. It goes deeper than just looking at what a technique DOES or what it IS. Learning a technique is good and necessary but ultimately that's just vocabulary. We of course need to learn the meaning of words to communicate...but we also need to understand the structure of language. Communication isn't just knowing the word, it's knowing when and how to use it. It's knowing the proper construction of a sentence, it's knowing context.

    Bunkai isn't just about knowing the WHAT (e.g an application) and the HOW (details on how to do it), but also the WHEN (timing, context) and the WHY (context, situations, etc.) Bunkai is studying the movements to gain deeper understanding of the possibilities, what you can do, when you should do it, why it makes sense.

    The material we teach in class is more than just a play list of techniques. There is study and experience and meaning and context behind everything we do. We might not have ever put it this way before but the whole curriculum comes from bunkai: analysis of what works, what doesn't, how bodies move and operate, how people react, etc.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Pistol Groundfighting, Texas

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    6,518
    Itosu's precept #6:
    Practice each of the techniques of karate repeatedly. Learn the explanations of every technique well, and decide when and in what manner to apply them when needed. Enter, counter, withdraw is the rule for torite.
    And Abernethy's comments:
    Precept 6 encourages us to study the bunkai, or applications of kata, (i.e. “Learn the explanations of every technique well”) and to personally explore the appropriate use of such bunkai in combat. Many karateka do not include bunkai in their training and hence are not training in accordance with this principle. Itosu also makes it clear that we must also decide when and how the techniques of karate should be applied. Even people who study bunkai often fail in this regard. Knowing what a kata motion is for and knowing when and how to effectively apply it are two very different things.

    The final sentence of the 6th precept (“Enter, counter, withdraw is the rule for torite”) is another I find very interesting. “Torite” refers to grappling (literally "seizing hands") and is used in karate circles to refer to the grappling side of the original art. “Torite” was also an old term for Ju-Jutsu and was used in that way in some of Jigaro Kano's writing (Kano being the founder of Judo). Itosu's “enter, counter, withdraw” rule would seem to be anti-grappling advice i.e. when grabbed you can't immediately flee the scene, so get in there, do damage, and then get out of there. This is sound advice for civilian self-protection and is totally in accordance with the nature of karate as explained in Precept 1.
    Good advice all around. In particular, PGF students should recognize these concepts from class.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Pistol Groundfighting, Texas

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •