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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    8,253
    Make it with a folder and you could just sling it and carry an m4 for everything else....
    Nothing says Fuck You like a shotgun.....

  2. #22
    This topic has come up on this forum a few times, in a few different ways. It is also a topic of interest for me, and I have been planning a similar rifle or a while, and once funds permit, will be putting one together. For me, the question has been one of what advantages that the shooter is trying to obtain. 77gr tipped match kings can print MOA well beyond the usable, terminal range of 5.56. A buddy has one shot, DRT, a nearly 300 pound hog with a TMK at 680 yards. Placement, placement, placement. The same shooter has recorded 3-shot, sub-moa groups at 1000 yards. I've personally seen him go fve for five on 1/2 MOA gongs at 650 yards. It's nuts.

    That doesn't mean, however, that 5.56x45mm is a 650+ yard cartridge. The shooter in question was using a 20" bull profile Kreiger barrel on a custom built AR. At ranges beyond 500-600 yards, a long action cartridge is called for. Making the jump to a magnum action makes for a rough day in a semi-auto platform.

    When considering a long action cartridge, the decision--to me--comes down to .308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor. There are definitely some fanbois for .260, or 6.5 PRC... But, when considering the availability and cost of match grade factory loads, the only two cartridges that I would be messing with are 7.62x51 and 6.5CM. Then, you're faced with trying to determine which to use. Again, I go back to what advantages that you are trying to chase. For me, the only reason to go to a long action cartridge in a semi is to get fast, repeatable hits on man-sized targets at 600-1000m. Ideally, I would be able to get precision hits on targets out to the practical limits of competing cartridges (I am looking at you, 7.62x54R, especially coming out of a PKM). To me, this means something close to 1400m, given the time to prep such shots.

    Either way you slice it, a long action cartridge comes into its own as you go beyond 600, and especially as you approach 1000. If that is the sweet spot that you are min/maxing performance in, then 6.5CM handily comes out ahead of 7.62x51mm. 143 grain ELD pills passing through your thoracic cavity at ~1500 feet per second (at 1000 yards!) is going to be plenty effective on two-legged game. This isn't just a minority opinion. Here's one from a pretty experienced shooter. The takeaway for me has been that at the ranges where you're making your money (600 and out), 6.5CM handily differentiates itself from .308, especially when it comes to windage. Reading the wind is hands down the most difficult part of long ranged shooting, and 6.5CM practically ignores a crosswind as compared to the 7.62x51mm. This allows for the aforementioned rapid and repeatable hits.

    So, that's where I landed on the subject. A 14.5" 6.5CM performs similarly to an 18" .308. That's pretty terrifying. The velocities that you can produce will still give you a usable engagement window out to 600-800 yards. Even with a big .308 can on the end, you still have something that is shorter than the M16A4s that our guys were clearing buildings with in the opening stages of OIF. That's a lot of capability in a very small package. The sweet spot for longer barrels is 22-24". The weight on those renders them unusable. A friend has an 18" fluted BA Hanson barrel, and the rifle can be shot from the shoulder with relative ease.

    So, there's a perspective on barrel length. From as short as I'd be willing to go (14.5") to a practical maximum (18") to the mathematical set point for max velocity without extra length (22-24").

    From there, you're facing a question about your optic. A 1-6 is great. I have a Vortex 1-6, have used a Razor 1-6, and worked with a Leupold 1.5-6. They are great, but for a DMR, I want the ability to examine a location, positively ID a target, differentiate a target in a complex visual field, gather usable intelligence to determine a go/no-go for a shot, etc. As a buddy put it, you can take a shot across the street from inside a house to inside another house with a red dot... But you wouldn't be able to see if the target was armed, or if they were pointing a weapon at you. That same shot with a 1-6 lets you gather that information. The same example applies at 600+ yards, but requires more magnification.

    For optics, you can consider an LPVO or a more traditional mid-power optic. The newer Nightforce NXS 1-8s are insane. I have shot one, and it is, as with all NF optics, incredible. The ATACR 1-8 is heavier and longer, but the ATACR line is the Rolls Royce of optics. The new for 2020 Vortex 1-10 also looks like it'll be fantastic. The reticle on those is phenomenal. I think that with a 1-8 or the 1-10, you'd have about 85% of the bases covered.

    If you were to be talking about going towards a more traditional marksman / sniper role, where the rifle is used as much to gain information as it is to engage targets, I'd be looking for something that went to at least 12x. A decent mid point on those would be something like the Bushnell Elite LRTS 3-12 or 4.5-18. Nightforce has their SHV 4-14. To me, though, the god-tier mid power optic is the Leupold Mark 6 3-18. Law Dog always demonstrates champagne taste, and he wasn't wrong when he picked one of those up. They are crystal clear to around 14 or 15x, and get a little dark as you head to 18... But they are 23 oz and under 12 inches long. That's essentially the same footprint on your rifle as a Razor HD 1-6. Think about that for a moment.

    So, putting it all together... The SCAR-H / SCAR-17 can be had in 6.5CM, but it takes buying a separate barrel assembly, adding to the already astronomical cost of the platform. That said, if money were not object, the SCAR would be my go to for a 7.62x51mm platform. Past that, you're really just looking at AR-10s. To me, the practical way to go is an AR-10.

    My ideal version of this rifle would be a 14.5 to 18" fluted barrel AR-10 with the Leupold Mk6 3-18x44 on top. I'd have an MRDS either offset or piggy backed on the Leupold's scope rings. The muzzle device would be a flash hider / suppressor adapter for whatever can I planned on buying. After that, you'd just be looking at load development.
    There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.
    ~Ernest Hemingway

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    8,253
    Quote Originally Posted by noonesshowmonkey View Post
    This topic has come up on this forum a few times, in a few different ways. It is also a topic of interest for me, and I have been planning a similar rifle or a while, and once funds permit, will be putting one together. For me, the question has been one of what advantages that the shooter is trying to obtain. 77gr tipped match kings can print MOA well beyond the usable, terminal range of 5.56. A buddy has one shot, DRT, a nearly 300 pound hog with a TMK at 680 yards. Placement, placement, placement. The same shooter has recorded 3-shot, sub-moa groups at 1000 yards. I've personally seen him go fve for five on 1/2 MOA gongs at 650 yards. It's nuts.

    That doesn't mean, however, that 5.56x45mm is a 650+ yard cartridge. The shooter in question was using a 20" bull profile Kreiger barrel on a custom built AR. At ranges beyond 500-600 yards, a long action cartridge is called for. Making the jump to a magnum action makes for a rough day in a semi-auto platform.

    When considering a long action cartridge, the decision--to me--comes down to .308 vs 6.5 Creedmoor. There are definitely some fanbois for .260, or 6.5 PRC... But, when considering the availability and cost of match grade factory loads, the only two cartridges that I would be messing with are 7.62x51 and 6.5CM. Then, you're faced with trying to determine which to use. Again, I go back to what advantages that you are trying to chase. For me, the only reason to go to a long action cartridge in a semi is to get fast, repeatable hits on man-sized targets at 600-1000m. Ideally, I would be able to get precision hits on targets out to the practical limits of competing cartridges (I am looking at you, 7.62x54R, especially coming out of a PKM). To me, this means something close to 1400m, given the time to prep such shots.

    Either way you slice it, a long action cartridge comes into its own as you go beyond 600, and especially as you approach 1000. If that is the sweet spot that you are min/maxing performance in, then 6.5CM handily comes out ahead of 7.62x51mm. 143 grain ELD pills passing through your thoracic cavity at ~1500 feet per second (at 1000 yards!) is going to be plenty effective on two-legged game. This isn't just a minority opinion. Here's one from a pretty experienced shooter. The takeaway for me has been that at the ranges where you're making your money (600 and out), 6.5CM handily differentiates itself from .308, especially when it comes to windage. Reading the wind is hands down the most difficult part of long ranged shooting, and 6.5CM practically ignores a crosswind as compared to the 7.62x51mm. This allows for the aforementioned rapid and repeatable hits.

    So, that's where I landed on the subject. A 14.5" 6.5CM performs similarly to an 18" .308. That's pretty terrifying. The velocities that you can produce will still give you a usable engagement window out to 600-800 yards. Even with a big .308 can on the end, you still have something that is shorter than the M16A4s that our guys were clearing buildings with in the opening stages of OIF. That's a lot of capability in a very small package. The sweet spot for longer barrels is 22-24". The weight on those renders them unusable. A friend has an 18" fluted BA Hanson barrel, and the rifle can be shot from the shoulder with relative ease.

    So, there's a perspective on barrel length. From as short as I'd be willing to go (14.5") to a practical maximum (18") to the mathematical set point for max velocity without extra length (22-24").

    From there, you're facing a question about your optic. A 1-6 is great. I have a Vortex 1-6, have used a Razor 1-6, and worked with a Leupold 1.5-6. They are great, but for a DMR, I want the ability to examine a location, positively ID a target, differentiate a target in a complex visual field, gather usable intelligence to determine a go/no-go for a shot, etc. As a buddy put it, you can take a shot across the street from inside a house to inside another house with a red dot... But you wouldn't be able to see if the target was armed, or if they were pointing a weapon at you. That same shot with a 1-6 lets you gather that information. The same example applies at 600+ yards, but requires more magnification.

    For optics, you can consider an LPVO or a more traditional mid-power optic. The newer Nightforce NXS 1-8s are insane. I have shot one, and it is, as with all NF optics, incredible. The ATACR 1-8 is heavier and longer, but the ATACR line is the Rolls Royce of optics. The new for 2020 Vortex 1-10 also looks like it'll be fantastic. The reticle on those is phenomenal. I think that with a 1-8 or the 1-10, you'd have about 85% of the bases covered.

    If you were to be talking about going towards a more traditional marksman / sniper role, where the rifle is used as much to gain information as it is to engage targets, I'd be looking for something that went to at least 12x. A decent mid point on those would be something like the Bushnell Elite LRTS 3-12 or 4.5-18. Nightforce has their SHV 4-14. To me, though, the god-tier mid power optic is the Leupold Mark 6 3-18. Law Dog always demonstrates champagne taste, and he wasn't wrong when he picked one of those up. They are crystal clear to around 14 or 15x, and get a little dark as you head to 18... But they are 23 oz and under 12 inches long. That's essentially the same footprint on your rifle as a Razor HD 1-6. Think about that for a moment.

    So, putting it all together... The SCAR-H / SCAR-17 can be had in 6.5CM, but it takes buying a separate barrel assembly, adding to the already astronomical cost of the platform. That said, if money were not object, the SCAR would be my go to for a 7.62x51mm platform. Past that, you're really just looking at AR-10s. To me, the practical way to go is an AR-10.

    My ideal version of this rifle would be a 14.5 to 18" fluted barrel AR-10 with the Leupold Mk6 3-18x44 on top. I'd have an MRDS either offset or piggy backed on the Leupold's scope rings. The muzzle device would be a flash hider / suppressor adapter for whatever can I planned on buying. After that, you'd just be looking at load development.
    Let me know why built your buddy’s ar. I’m ok with doing a custom setup, the name brand has no bearing on what a custom setup with a real match barrel can do. There is some really good factory stuff out there for ar 10s. The problem is that there is so much stuff nobody has done any reviews on a lot of it. Look at ArmaLites new line of ar 10s, all right around 2000.00. I’m still searching, I will end up with something eventually....
    Nothing says Fuck You like a shotgun.....

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    8,253
    It will definetly have Atleast an 18” barrel and I will put a full length Magpul “sniper” stock or something similar.
    Nothing says Fuck You like a shotgun.....

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by chad newton View Post
    Let me know why built your buddyís ar. Iím ok with doing a custom setup, the name brand has no bearing on what a custom setup with a real match barrel can do. There is some really good factory stuff out there for ar 10s. The problem is that there is so much stuff nobody has done any reviews on a lot of it. Look at ArmaLites new line of ar 10s, all right around 2000.00. Iím still searching, I will end up with something eventually....
    I believe that he used an Aero M5 receiver set & rail. The guts were an Aero M5 parts kit. Barrel was a Rainier Arms Match or a Ballistic Advantage Hanson profile. I don't know about the bolt.

    I'll ping my two buds that have working AR-10s and see what they say.

    Custom build seems to be the main way to do this affordably. Otherwise, I'd buy either a KAC SR-25 or a Larue Tactical PredatOBR, the latter in 6.5CM.
    There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.
    ~Ernest Hemingway

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