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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    This mofo would have been shot in the back of the head by me or any of my staff the moment he set foot in the parking lot and we would have justified it all motherf*cking day long and twice on Sunday.
    Not comfortable with this. Cannot shoot him because he got out a car wearing a wig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    The instant that you see a weapon in his hands, you kill him in his fucking tracks.
    Now we are in the same place.. Can shoot him because his trying to walk into a building full of people with a weapon.

    The interesting discussion for me is how you force the guy to reveal his hand or abandon his plan. It the general good guy problem (if you care about not spending your life in Jail - nothing to do with having balls or the mind of a wolf et etc.). You need to handle a world with emotionally troubled but harmless people and dangerous people exist.
    Last edited by TwoBodyOneHead; 01-01-2020 at 08:48 PM.

  2. #42
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    This event will be the subject of much analysis for years to come.

    I read Gabe's blog on this, and it is a good thing to dissect things and even discuss what could have been done better. Specifically from a mindset perspective. It isn't Monday Morning Quarterbacking. This is life and death. Surely, many will interpret any discussion related to this as insensitive, in poor taste, or senseless criticism or maybe "too soon" ...well, they would be wrong.

    Overall, this was tragic, but a success since this could have been 20, 30 or even more people murdered. The communists are already spinning this. But this story and video will indeed serve as a deterrent for some. Somewhere out there is some scumbag with a similar homicide fantasy who will get a reality check watching this video and will stick to role playing with their xbox.

    Anyway -

    1. The first man who attempted to respond who was shot first and died deserves respect and perhaps some hero praise in the sense that he was not a sheep, made the effort to carry, made the effort to be part of a volunteer Church security team (better than nothing right?), and confronted an armed murderer at very close range and lost his life doing so trying to save lives. He did what he knew and what he could. People often don't know what they don't know. There's a lot he didn't know about self-defense. As said thousands of times...there's people with guns, and then there's warriors. They are not the same thing.

    2. That said in #1 above, he, very sadly I say this - contributes positively as an example of what NOT to do. Especially in timing, draw stroke, concealment method, standing still...and certainly before all that - in the threat assessment. I believe everyone who is commenting on him is doing so from a position of care and concern. Every single person wanted to see him win that fight and it burns and hurts that he didn't - so we discuss it in the hopes that others in the future do better. He was a good guy. One of "us" ...maybe not a warrior, but a good guy.

    My understanding is, he was sitting there with the intent of keeping an eye on this suspicious character. A lot can be written about that....but if someone told me to watch some disguised, trenchcoat wearing stranger with a bulge in his coat and no hands showing in a pew at my church, my pistol will already be drawn in covert ready at the very least. Fake beard, wig, trench-coat ...acting strange...what more does it take?

    ...the mindset taught here and of those in this community is exceptionally rare even in the gun world. Normalcy bias, or whatever it is determined to be - people just don't go to the gun until they are certain. And certainty is when they see a gun. And even then they delay. To make matters worse, most state's laws are written in such a way that it forces such a behavior if one wants to act in a lawful manner. Yes I know, better judged by 12 than carried by 6. I get it. But law often shapes culture to our detriment.


    3. I counted a total of (6) armed parishioners who at some point pulled out firearms. Two were in the immediate area of the shitbag. The other 4 came in after the fact. This deserves to be recognized and is a good thing. More guns = more coverage. Trained or untrained, it is better than nothing. It's better than a large building filled with people who cower as they are being slaughtered. Thus the mentality / culture of this church wasn't that bad. They just weren't trained up and hard core.

    4. The guy who shot the shitbag did say he went for a high shot. But at that distance on a moving target under stress - I do think there was a little bit of luck involved, or God guided that shot accordingly. One thing is for sure - the better you are, the more lucky you get. As for speed, he was slow too and knows it. In the interview - he was made aware of the time by reviewing the video and said 4-6 seconds.

    It is hard as we're not in his shoes. Sometimes 1-2 seconds feels like 10. Other times, 10 seconds feel like 2. There's a lot on this subject written by many aided by psychologists. If I had to guess - he felt and perceived it all to have taken place in 1-2 seconds tops. There's also the mistake in perception of when the gun fight has begun. People often naturally believe their "timer" starts when they have made the decision to fight. But this is being behind the curve, since the timer started when the other guy decided to use lethal force. You don't get to start the timer. Worse, you never even get to hear the beep or that you are even being timed. Sorry to use the competition metaphors.

    5. The threat indicators were quite high as discussed already. For me, that's the start of the fight. A start of a fight doesn't necessarily mean that it will escalate to guns drawn and lead flying. And, we can't just draw on people we suspect might pull a shotgun out of a trench coat. So we have to pre-stage or immediately take other types of action.

    We've all seen it 100 times. One guy is showing all the signs of initiating violence, and the other guy knows and sees an escalation but stands there and ultimately gets knocked out by a first strike. Happens in bars, schools and throughout life. The reaction is always the same 'what an idiot, why didn't he see that coming' Trained people see those signs, and either hit first if they can get away with it, or stage their hands and body in a position where they will not allow for a punch to land or at least harm. It should be no different with a firearm.

    Having your firearm holstered in this scenario is the same as having your hands in your pocket with some irate drunk guy coming at you. The other side of the coin is, draw and nothing happens - if someone sees it, they will take issue with it and even a very pro-gun, pro-defense church might rethink a volunteer security team is a good idea.


    In the end, the mainstream gun world will, mainly for political purposes, chalk this up as a big win for guns saves lives which they already are - and the masses who follow the mainstream thought on this will walk learning nothing from this. Any kind of critical analysis of this will be perceived by the mainstream as undermining the carry movement. If the focus becomes about the slow response, bad tactics, or the questionable effectiveness of non-professionals (I almost vomitted having to type that last part)...it can serve the interests of the anti-gunners. In an age of narratives, what is the story? The story here is a successful stopping of a mass-murder. Or at least it should be. Communists are framing it as just more gun violence in a church.

    This is why those in the training and tactics world will take heat for trying to get people to learn from this. There's an even bigger battle raging today.

  3. #43
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    Do you guys see why instructors get exasperated?

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoBodyOneHead View Post
    Not comfortable with this. Cannot shoot him because he got out a car wearing a wig.

    Is this the entire context of what I said? Please read what I wrote...in context with everything we have done in the last ten years because you are not bew to any of this and tell me that I said to shoot him because he had a wig.

    Now we are in the same place.. Can shoot him because his trying to walk into a building full of people with a weapon.

    The interesting discussion for me is how you force the guy to reveal his hand or abandon his plan. It the general good guy problem (if you care about not spending your life in Jail - nothing to do with having balls or the mind of a wolf et etc.). You need to handle a world with emotionally troubled but harmless people and dangerous people exist.

    I don't want him to abandon his plan...I want to force him to reveal him so that I can solve the problem - not for him to come back when there is someone friendlier that will cut him slack. That is the difference between the Tiger mind and the Sheepdog mind. I suggest you attend a KWTL class and get that jail shit out of your mind because it will prevent you from taking action one day...I guarantee it.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  4. #44
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    Great and thoughtful analysis. I wish more posts were like this. My notes below

    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute2A View Post
    This event will be the subject of much analysis for years to come.

    I read Gabe's blog on this, and it is a good thing to dissect things and even discuss what could have been done better. Specifically from a mindset perspective. It isn't Monday Morning Quarterbacking. This is life and death. Surely, many will interpret any discussion related to this as insensitive, in poor taste, or senseless criticism or maybe "too soon" ...well, they would be wrong.

    I recall from the Police world that there was always an aversion to dissect events as some thought it disrespectful to "those who were there". My POV is that once you have been in similar events you have every right to do so for the benefit of those who have not who are being told this was "how its supposed to be".

    Overall, this was tragic, but a success since this could have been 20, 30 or even more people murdered. The communists are already spinning this. But this story and video will indeed serve as a deterrent for some. Somewhere out there is some scumbag with a similar homicide fantasy who will get a reality check watching this video and will stick to role playing with their xbox.

    Right on

    Anyway -

    1. The first man who attempted to respond who was shot first and died deserves respect and perhaps some hero praise in the sense that he was not a sheep, made the effort to carry, made the effort to be part of a volunteer Church security team (better than nothing right?), and confronted an armed murderer at very close range and lost his life doing so trying to save lives. He did what he knew and what he could. People often don't know what they don't know. There's a lot he didn't know about self-defense. As said thousands of times...there's people with guns, and then there's warriors. They are not the same thing.

    Agreed. But, nobody in the media, social or otherwise, has pointed out the failure of mind set that took place here...and tactics and preparation. Poor mind set in particular as I think it is the main reason why so many LE guys are geting killed every year. Not that bad guys are markedly worse, but that the warrior mind set is no longer a part of the culture. I would say in 2020 America there is no reason for people to not know. Brave...damn right. But also unprepared, probably unskilled, and mentally unready. All things that could have been solved with just a little effort.

    2. That said in #1 above, he, very sadly I say this - contributes positively as an example of what NOT to do. Especially in timing, draw stroke, concealment method, standing still...and certainly before all that - in the threat assessment. I believe everyone who is commenting on him is doing so from a position of care and concern. Every single person wanted to see him win that fight and it burns and hurts that he didn't - so we discuss it in the hopes that others in the future do better. He was a good guy. One of "us" ...maybe not a warrior, but a good guy.


    Well said


    My understanding is, he was sitting there with the intent of keeping an eye on this suspicious character. A lot can be written about that....but if someone told me to watch some disguised, trenchcoat wearing stranger with a bulge in his coat and no hands showing in a pew at my church, my pistol will already be drawn in covert ready at the very least. Fake beard, wig, trench-coat ...acting strange...what more does it take?

    Mind set. What does "watch" mean? Does it mean keep an angled look at him in a casual manner? Or does it mean kill him in your mind and develop a plan to do so in real life...then wait for the signla that justifies it for you? The latter is where we are at.

    ...the mindset taught here and of those in this community is exceptionally rare even in the gun world. Normalcy bias, or whatever it is determined to be - people just don't go to the gun until they are certain. And certainty is when they see a gun. And even then they delay. To make matters worse, most state's laws are written in such a way that it forces such a behavior if one wants to act in a lawful manner. Yes I know, better judged by 12 than carried by 6. I get it. But law often shapes culture to our detriment.

    Killing Within The Law settles all of that easily in two days of lecture and classroom work.

    3. I counted a total of (6) armed parishioners who at some point pulled out firearms. Two were in the immediate area of the shitbag. The other 4 came in after the fact. This deserves to be recognized and is a good thing. More guns = more coverage. Trained or untrained, it is better than nothing. It's better than a large building filled with people who cower as they are being slaughtered. Thus the mentality / culture of this church wasn't that bad. They just weren't trained up and hard core.

    Agreed. And I think as well it would be an easy thing for the Pastor to gather all the armed men on a Saturday and get them on a "same page" position, as well as all knowing each other...face recognition if nothing else...far more important IMHO than a mission trip to Fiji or gathering extra socks for the homeless
    .

    4. The guy who shot the shitbag did say he went for a high shot. But at that distance on a moving target under stress - I do think there was a little bit of luck involved, or God guided that shot accordingly. One thing is for sure - the better you are, the more lucky you get. As for speed, he was slow too and knows it. In the interview - he was made aware of the time by reviewing the video and said 4-6 seconds.

    On speed...I have said time and time again that it is about timing and not about speed. Even a super slow man can win if his timing is great. In none of my own events was speed the deciding factor, but rather timing. Now that doesn't mean you go out of your way to be slow (that slow is smooth nonsense), but the focus on speed and the timer is misplaced.

    It is hard as we're not in his shoes. Sometimes 1-2 seconds feels like 10. Other times, 10 seconds feel like 2. There's a lot on this subject written by many aided by psychologists. If I had to guess - he felt and perceived it all to have taken place in 1-2 seconds tops. There's also the mistake in perception of when the gun fight has begun. People often naturally believe their "timer" starts when they have made the decision to fight. But this is being behind the curve, since the timer started when the other guy decided to use lethal force. You don't get to start the timer. Worse, you never even get to hear the beep or that you are even being timed. Sorry to use the competition metaphors.

    Perfectly stated!


    5. The threat indicators were quite high as discussed already. For me, that's the start of the fight. A start of a fight doesn't necessarily mean that it will escalate to guns drawn and lead flying. And, we can't just draw on people we suspect might pull a shotgun out of a trench coat. So we have to pre-stage or immediately take other types of action.

    I will say the fight started when they identified that there is something OFF about this guy. Not all fights end up with shooting. But in the mind of the fighters, it should be the consideration of where this will be going. My unpopular opinion is that their social church programming slowed them all down excessively. And allowed the bad guy to even enter the building in the first place.

    We've all seen it 100 times. One guy is showing all the signs of initiating violence, and the other guy knows and sees an escalation but stands there and ultimately gets knocked out by a first strike. Happens in bars, schools and throughout life. The reaction is always the same 'what an idiot, why didn't he see that coming' Trained people see those signs, and either hit first if they can get away with it, or stage their hands and body in a position where they will not allow for a punch to land or at least harm. It should be no different with a firearm.

    Tiger Mindset!! Always there to fight...he may not get to fight, but his preparation is already half way down the track when you first think of launching. That is how it has to be.

    Having your firearm holstered in this scenario is the same as having your hands in your pocket with some irate drunk guy coming at you. The other side of the coin is, draw and nothing happens - if someone sees it, they will take issue with it and even a very pro-gun, pro-defense church might rethink a volunteer security team is a good idea.

    There are solutions. Carry in an easier to draw place. For example...AIWB is about 25% less movement to point and thus faster. The guys with a belly - well, that is a part of preparation isn't it? There is also a covert hand placement, covert draw, etc. The concepts are easily available to anyone seeking info.



    In the end, the mainstream gun world will, mainly for political purposes, chalk this up as a big win for guns saves lives which they already are - and the masses who follow the mainstream thought on this will walk learning nothing from this. Any kind of critical analysis of this will be perceived by the mainstream as undermining the carry movement. If the focus becomes about the slow response, bad tactics, or the questionable effectiveness of non-professionals (I almost vomitted having to type that last part)...it can serve the interests of the anti-gunners. In an age of narratives, what is the story? The story here is a successful stopping of a mass-murder. Or at least it should be. Communists are framing it as just more gun violence in a church.

    This is why those in the training and tactics world will take heat for trying to get people to learn from this. There's an even bigger battle raging today.
    Thanks
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  5. #45
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    Jun 2016
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    Amen. Be proactive. Greet and probe in the parking lot before allowing entry into building and certainly before entry into sanctuary. Having two to greet with one reaching out to shake hands and other to provide overwatch from an orthogonal approach may clarify motives and test the observed individual's resolve as well. Get inside the observed individual's OODA by taking the first step of making contact.

    If a team is present, best to work as a team utilizing all the tech resources available to that team and to ensure coordination at different locations, parking lot, front of building, foyer, sanctuary, other wings/ministries, sound/worship/lighting booth, camera/dispatch room, etc.

    Focusing on single operator tactics/mindset is important for a safety team member as that individual is the foundation of the team but planning, training, sharing mindset, and working as a safety team should also be a priority as this allows for proactive advantages on the defender's home turf. The greatest strength of the Wolf is the pack.

    Remembering that the Hartford consensus committee proposed a T-H-RE-A-T response to active shooter events, safety teams must also be prepared to handle quickly the H-RE-A-T elements after threat suppression which comprises the current discussion. These elements are outside the scope of this forum but should be considered in every safety team plan.

    Can we anticipate training on team tactics for successful graduates of individual skillset and mindset training?
    Last edited by jmbrowning; 01-02-2020 at 09:00 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    Great and thoughtful analysis. I wish more posts were like this. My notes below



    Thanks
    I have watched the church footage between 05:00-13:00 several times and yes not the best quality ; "from that camera". I have watched the full TV interview twice.Both are cringe worthy.Notice BG decided the security team member that was further-est away was his first threat.Is it possible that somewhere there is footage from "the camera we put on him".
    Many are able, few are willing .

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  7. #47
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    I've discussed this with a friend that has a warrior mindset, he pointed to what has been said already: "earlier intervention."

    If bad guy was allowed to go to a pew, one member of the security team might have sat to bad guy’s right and one member behind him.

    If everything was at it was in the incident, same start point, I think draw stroke was indecisive/slow and the small of the back holster position was not conducive to having to draw from a seated position.

    Maybe the team should all carry a primary and BUG. Here deceased security team member might of been able to start with 2” .38 in hand but yet at least semi concealed.. The late Anthony, member of the tribe from the UK, used to call the 2" revolver a "rover" because you could put it in a coat pocket for easier access if your primary was harder to get to. (I think he was thinking of wearing a winter coat and putting the snubbie in the coat pocket with hand on it already)

    I think the deceased security team member's biggest obstacle was he may have thought the problem was going to be an unarmed intervention - escorting the bad guy out - and wasn’t in the mindset when bad gun presented shotgun to instantly go lethal force.

    The deceased security team member was a brave man and him standing in the gap saved others. I think today he would smile on anything we could learn from him to make churches more secure.

  8. #48
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    Given where we are in 2020, what we know, what we have seen happen over and over again...

    We have NO excuse. Lack of preparation, lack of training, lack of mindset, lack of ability to articulate what we do and why we do it...there is no excuse.


    What I have seen consistently in training over the years is that the top guys are READY. From a mindset perspective, they are already on the starting blocks, just waiting for the greenlight. That doesn't mean we walk around like a paranoid fear-biter, ready to jump at our own shadow...but a cold recognition of reality. We live our lives the way we intend to live them...and we are simply ready to engage any problem that rears its head.

    As Gabe always says - it's not about speed, it's about timing. Being fast is nice, but you don't have to be fast when you start the race before the other guy. In our mind, we've already won the race before he even thinks about starting. This all comes down to pulling your head out and PAYING ATTENTION.

    And even when we are caught off guard (because it can happen to the best of us), we are still faster in our timing because all of the glitches and decisions and points of decision have already been made. We know what we will do, we know how to do it, and we can explain why. And when we see the greenlight, we go without hesitation.

    The key is what information is presented up to and during that greenlight. If the right info is presented, we go. If it's not, then we don't. I don't think it's that complicated.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    .... tell me that I said to shim him because he had a wig
    When you said shoot him the second he stepped on the parking lot (pasted below). What other information would you have had at that point? Your latter writing is much better in explaining the indicators but it is from the perspective of someone standing on the door. Your go signal articulated there is discovering the weapon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    This mofo would have been shot in the back of the head by me or any of my staff the moment he set foot in the parking lot and we would have justified it all motherf*cking day long and twice on Sunday.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cco45acp View Post

    I think the deceased security team member's biggest obstacle was he may have thought the problem was going to be an unarmed intervention - escorting the bad guy out - and wasn’t in the mindset when bad gun presented shotgun to instantly go lethal force.
    [/COLOR]
    I don't know if I agree with that assessment. In the video his body language doesn't communicate "anticipating (anything)" to me. It communicates relaxed. Not focused or attentive on the threat.

    If he were paying attention as soon as the shooter stood up and approached the usher he would have stood too or changed position. Instead he remained seated.

    I think that dude was checked out. His focus was on sermon not suspect.

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