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  1. #11
    A second source (https://heavy.com/news/2019/12/keith-thomas-kinnunen/) noting that one couple was so disturbed by the perp's appearance that they planned to move following communion:

    Jack Wilson, the head of the church’s security team, told reporters on Monday that they had their eye on Kinnunen from the moment he walked into the church. They said they had “some concerns about him,” and had noticed he was wearing a wig and fake beard and had on a long coat. “We had cameras turned on him,” Wilson said.

    Isabel Arreola, the wife of a church deacon, was sitting with her daughter two feet in front of Kinnunen, and said he made her feel “uneasy,” the Fort Worth Star-Telegram reports.

    “She wanted to think that he was there to worship, just like everyone else, but she had never seen him in church, and said he appeared to be in disguise,” The Star Telegram wrote. “She and her husband decided they would move to the other side of the church after communion.” Arreola said the man then stood up and pulled out a shotgun, “At the same time, we all dove for the floor. My husband covered my daughter with his body.”

    Arreola told the newspaper, “I should have listened to my gut. While he was there, I couldn’t sing. I couldn’t pray. There was just something not right about him. But at the same time, I thought that maybe I was being too hard. Our church is so giving. We help the homeless. We help people get food, pay for car repairs. . . . "

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    45,439
    Quote Originally Posted by Sancap View Post
    There was just something not right about him. But at the same time, I thought that maybe I was being too hard. Our church is so giving. "
    AND THEREIN IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE AMERICAN CHURCH TODAY
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  3. #13
    The more I read, the more this guy was an avalanche of wrong. "We'll move after communion." "We will put a camera on him". Wow. Church security, put four armed guys around him in a L shaped ambush and call 911. Anybody else get up and leave.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    722
    I think this is another in a long line of thinking that went wrong somewhere. (I include myself in that statement) Not due to malicious intent, rather, the inability to admit to oneself that times are changing. With that in mind, the gun owner that was the interdictor may have been or even still is a hard man, harder than I, but has not kept up with the idea that terror exists and rears its ugly head anywhere. We’ve all made sense of the complete idiocy of how off this guy was and that nothing really happened when he stepped foot on the premises but again, the inability to admit that “shit just needs to be done” came into play.

    If we are talking about the Christian mindset conflicting with the events of the time, Gabe’s recent article on the subject is appropriate but we also have to ask what is more important right that second: potentially hurting a church goer’s feelings or saving two additional lives of the congregation? And there’s a Christian way of asking somebody to leave, forcefully or not.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Chris

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    1,532
    This was Normalcy Bias: the belief that "it's probably nothing."

    Normalcy Bias is almost always right, but when it's wrong, it it lethal.
    Armed Puritan

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    In a positive state of mind
    Posts
    3,752
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    AND THEREIN IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE AMERICAN CHURCH TODAY
    Correct. Too many churchgoers today are so wrapped up with forgiveness, tolerance, and brotherly love that they discount visible, almost tangible, indications that something is wrong and about to go "south" at a high rate of knots.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,178
    You could write a new chapter for The Gift of Fear using this event.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Arizona's Desert
    Posts
    229
    Quote Originally Posted by coastalcop View Post
    At the onset, you are at contact distance. Even if you arent an MMA fighter wrapping up the gun behind the barrel and falling backward would render the guy unable to shoot you or the congregation.
    Exactly!
    From the time that the security guy is seen standing to acquire his gun to the time the shooter fires the first shot, five seconds lapsed. I've always operated on the premise that within contact distance, hands on and NOT going to the gun is my default response. They had plenty of time to come crashing down on that guy, but getting physical isn't a gun scene mind-set.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,267
    Just read an article that said the shooter had visited multiple times and asked for handouts. When he was given food not $$ he got angry.

    :-/

    There are a lot of things that should have been handled differently.

    I will say that the guy that killed the shooter seems to have his head on straight as far as his attitude about shooting goes. No remorse or bad feelings about killing the shooter.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    321
    My security team at church needs to work through some scenarios like this. I'm no longer actively involved, as I live elsewhere temporarily, but the training is virtually nil. I could see something like this scenario happening pretty easily—guy like this comes in, gets watched but not stopped, shoots a couple folks before someone shoots him. Two local police officers are always at the church during services, but they're not paying a huge amount of attention always, and the other guys I patrolled with didn't know a whole lot about how to handle a similar situation, so far as I could tell. Mindset is key, as those on here emphasize regularly.

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