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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    10,045
    Most people go way over the top with armor. If I were in a static position, in the open, then I would consider all the soft armor pieces, front rear and side plates, including the brassards, groin, and throat protectors along with a helmet. From a perspective that fits 99% of the people on the forum, you need to think in individual or small unit tactics where speed is your security and mobility is paramount. If for some reason I feel the need to supplement my above selection of plates I'll add a concealable vest under it.

    In the last Wilderness Warrior Weekend in TX Sua and I opened up our war chests to allow the students to inspect what we had. While our experiences are different and our gear choices reflect those experiences, the base setups were nearly identical in form and function. Read the article, there's a lot more there than you'll likely need but it will answer a lot of questions for you and help you wrap your head around the decision making process for what kit you actually need.
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    186
    I defer to the experts SUA and Greg. I am in agreement with Greg about going over the top with armor. I wanted something simple, lightish weight, not too bulky, and could stop the M855 which I see as the most prevalent threat because everyone has an AR. 10x12 shooter's cut with a simple scalable plate carrier is the way I went, which is what Sua so eloquently wrote about in his excellent blog post.
    Don Marbach
    Scottsdale, AZ

    "Man's flight through life is sustained by the power of his knowledge"

    Austin 'Dusty' Miller, the quote on the Eagle & Fledgling statue at the U.S. Air Force Academy

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    693
    Thanks fellas. I have nothing to add, lots to process, I'm just in the shut up and learn mode.
    The info is much appreciated.
    Be alert, stand firm in the faith, act like a man, be strong. Your every action must be done with love.

    ďAdversity introduces a man to himself.Ē

  4. #14
    There is a relatively recent development (at least since 2014) in armor that was not really covered in the blog by Sua. These are the Special Threat or III+ type plates. While they are not a standardized NIJ rating, I am not really comfortable calling out Velocity Systems or Hesco and like as peddling bullshit. These are often standalone plates, and usually are thinner / lighter than a traditional SAPI/ESAPI with a soft armor backer.

    As with everything, you should be considering the threats that you expect to face. In CONUS, the III+ style plates, especially something like the Hesco 3810, may be rated against anything you'd likely find on a two-way range. Given the proliferation of long and magnum action bolt guns in the US, I chose to go with some ESAPI level IVs with Velocity Systems dynema backers.
    There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.
    ~Ernest Hemingway

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    15,587
    We are now in 2019 and soon to be in the 2020. I see that there are advances in plates. I just watched a youtube about a plate of level IV of 5.5 lbs consisting of plastic and ceramic and think there is some steel in it that did stop AP 30-06 and also AP 7.62x51. I was thrown off by the cheap price of it at $99. Essentially I will do some more looking. The level 3 plastic plates will be penetrated at close range by the SS109 5.56 projectile if the range is close and the barrel is 16 inches or longer. Barrel length really does matter with 5.56 for a lot of reasons.

    My real question is just how common is SS109 that I believe is 855 in US military nomenclature. If I am going to bother getting armor, do I want to worry about that round being used.
    For places not covered, a hit from a rifle in your arms or legs or head that the armor does not cover can also be quite lethal and maybe you could stop it with a self applied tourniquet. Armor will not make you invulnerable.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    10,045
    $100 unproven armor vs. Your life...... idk about you but I'm worth more than a 100 bones
    Greg "Hyena" Nichols
    Instagram: tacfit_az
    Facebook: SI Instructor Greg Nichols

    #thinkinginviolence
    #tactisexual

    Always entertaining, mildly offensive
    IANative: Indeed, when you grab Brent (or he grabs you), it feels like liquid unobtanium wrapped in rawhide... whereas Greg is just solid muscle wrapped in hate, seasoned w/ snuff and a little lead.

    http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...he-Obscenities

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    15,587
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Nichols View Post
    $100 unproven armor vs. Your life...... idk about you but I'm worth more than a 100 bones
    I did not say I was going to get that armor and said I was thrown off by the price. What does it actually cost to make those plates that consist of compressed sheets of plastic and squares of ceramic glued into a plate. Does paying 5 times more guarantee it is better. I see that other plates being sold are not made in the USA and that also makes one cautious. Outside the USA is often another word for China.

    The point is that the technology exists to build fairly light level 4 plates and I did see that particular plate filmed at 15 ft stopping one black tip 30-06 and another round that was said to be AP 7.62x51. So that has my attention. I am just looking at this point.

    The question remains is a level IV needed vs a level III Plate being good enough.

    All plates are unproven until they are shot. Plates can not come stamped that they have passed a proofing test. The best is certification for the New Jersey standard or what ever the europeans and asians used for their certification and hope they have good quality control. A higher pricing suggests higher quality control, but is not absolute proof of such. Perhaps an ISO 9001 certification might be some guarantee of quality control. If they sell to the DoD or large police agencies maybe that is a useful standard.
    Last edited by barnetmill; 12-10-2019 at 04:41 AM. Reason: typo
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    2,141
    Someone already said, Hesco 3810’s they are slightly pricey, but will stop damned near anything you may face, at least once. The weigh 5lbs or less depending on size and cut. I’m still running Paraclete LVL IV ESAPI’s at about 8lbs. Each, and can’t wait for the Hesco’s to come in.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NWFL
    Posts
    15,587
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    Someone already said, Hesco 3810ís they are slightly pricey, but will stop damned near anything you may face, at least once. The weigh 5lbs or less depending on size and cut. Iím still running Paraclete LVL IV ESAPIís at about 8lbs. Each, and canít wait for the Hescoís to come in.

    Thanks and I will do some research to see if they will stop M193 and M855 & its variant from a 20 inch barrel

    They apparently offer:


    Product Specifications

    Ultimate in lightweight ballistic protection, designed for high-speed, precision operations.
    Open BI 3800 - LEVEL III STAND ALONE



    Open BI 3810 - LEVEL III+ STAND ALONE



    Open BI 4800 - LEVEL IV STAND ALONE
    The plus three may be the one of interest.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    2,141
    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    Thanks and I will do some research to see if they will stop M193 and M855 & its variant from a 20 inch barrel

    They apparently offer:


    Product Specifications

    Ultimate in lightweight ballistic protection, designed for high-speed, precision operations.
    Open BI 3800 - LEVEL III STAND ALONE



    Open BI 3810 - LEVEL III+ STAND ALONE



    Open BI 4800 - LEVEL IV STAND ALONE
    The plus three may be the one of interest.
    III+ are the ones I’m replacing the Paracletes with.

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