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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
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    7,329
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    I believe it is mechanical offset vs. gravity. The dot is usually above the barrel so usually you are compensating for that distance between the two. When you rotate the weapon, you still have to compensate for that distance, plus bullet drop is now introduced on a new axis which you view as the side of the gun.
    Exactly.
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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    566
    Learned this method from Greg at TASI in Ohio a few years ago and loved it from the moment I tried it. Practice shooting from it regularly ever since. It's rockk solid and yes the hold is exactly as Gabe describes (duh). It really opens up the possibilities for long range hits with the red dot sighted pistol.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Beyond The Wall
    Posts
    44,987
    I get ... what was the word Cooper used ... "exasperated" sometimes. One lays out the method, and the why...and then you have a percentage that thinks you are wrong because they read something somewhere that was different...or even worse...saw a video on Youtube. And all without even trying out what we teach on the shooting range or FOF gym. I kinda understand people's reluctance to write anything much less teach these days. Much easier to just go along...or take students through endless drills creating mountains of uneducated brass on the range.

    asymmetric-221.jpg

    Look again. The image on the left ILLUSTRATES holdover with the pistol perfectly vertical. No...the dots may not be exact so just quit that line of thinking. Another words is EXAMPLE of what it MAY look like. You hold the dot higher since beyond fifty yards, the bullet will exhibit some drop due to gravity. So to hit the torso, we teach to hold at the neck line...or thoracic notch.

    Now this is important. The ballistic curve will be identical regardless of whether the pistol is held sideways or upside down. The bullet leave the barrel and the force of gravity begins working on it...pulling it to earth.

    If the pistol is held..by a right handed shooter in the Fetal Prone...the forces of gravity are the same as if you'd fired from any other imaginable position. What has changed is your positioning of the pistol's sighting system. If you use the standard hold shown on the first image...your shot will be to the left and way down on the target. And when we say to the right of the target or to the left of the target, we are referring to the shooter's perspective...not the target's perspective. Please read the previous paragraph if that is not easy to envision.

    We hold at the high right of the target because the sighting system has been turned to the right, vertically, and the offset from sight and barrel is now different. The ballistic curve due to gravity hasn't changed and is still vertical...the sighting system is now horizontal...so holding to the right side, level with where you would have held if the pistol was vertical, will aling the weapon where it needs to be on target. And as we said in class...if you are a lefty...it is the reverse.

    Please...before you send me any more diagrams and disagreeing ballistic charts...go to the damn range and try what I just said at 50 yards, 75 yards, and 100 yards. Everyone in class did...and they hit repeatedly at 100 yards.
    Gabriel Suarez

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  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    441
    No different than understanding offsets with your rifle. I look forward to trying this the next time the range is empty.

  5. #15
    I plan to try it, next range visit.

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  6. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts
    9,571
    Funny, it's been about 10 years since I introduced Fetal Prone to the unconventional shooting position section of SI's rifle and pistol curriculum and we have been teaching it the same way for almost a decade and it has seemed to work for absolutely everybody.

    To be simple. There are 2 things, and only 2 things to account for with this position. 1) bullet drop and 2) mechanical offset. By aiming high you compensate for bullet drop, by aiming slightly right (assuming you're on your right side) you compensate for the mechanical offset of the RDS height over muzzle. It's just that simple and doesn't even require a diagram, your model is assigning a ballistic arc to the horizontal access of the round which doesn't exist.

    I wouldn't assume to come to your place of business to tell you what you are doing in your profession is wrong, I find it strange that you would come to experts for information and then disregard it because you have a preset answer in your mind that we won't confirm.

    I wouldn't take my car to a mechanic and then proceed to tell him the best way to fix the problem.

    ETA: Look it's not just about giving you the correct information, our responses are also to ensure that other readers don't become confused with false information as it compromises their effectiveness and safety, if you're happy with your performance stick with what you are doing and drive on but don't attempt to challenge the method that EVERYONE for 10 years has used to make this position successful at distance.
    Last edited by Greg Nichols; 11-22-2019 at 01:27 PM.
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