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  1. #1
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    Default SEMI AUTO OR PUMP ACTION?

    tac-13-si-51.jpg

    An out of the box pump action will generally be more reliable than an out of the box semi auto. Generally. What I like about Remingtons over Mossbergs is that they can be tuned up to a high level whereas Mossbergs cannot. And please don;t insult my intelligence by telling me they do not need to be. A semi requires a firm hold and solid surface to rest upon...ie., the shoulder, for reliable function. I wonder how much the "one handed use" is another one of those imagined theoretical events (like the private citizen shooting a terrorist off a rooftop at 200 yards). Not saying it has never happened but selecting a weapon over such a rare event seems strange to me...kinda like selecting a revolver and eschewing all semi autos because somebody somewhere had to press the muzzle into a rib cage one handed during a ground fight in a jungle. I don't know. Does anyone have tangible examples...more than just one (one is an anomaly...I want to se several before I concern myself with it) you heard about third hand at a bar...about a man needing to use one hand to fire a shotgun or rifle?

    In truth, you select a weapon for its reliability WITH QUALITY COMBAT ANTI PERSONNEL AMMO...not for its reliability with shit ammo. A Suarez Supermatch will run all day with quality factory ammo but will probably choke with Wolff Shit Loads or Bubba Assscratcher's Economy reloads. Who cares...if you will be carrying that in the weapon and I knew, I would simply refuse to sell anything to you in disgust.

    A semi auto 12 ga with quality ammo can be just as reliable but you need to put in the time to select and test. A pump you can unbox, load and leave it. Also the action of a semi sometimes has its peculiarities. The Benelli for example. I recall the horrified faces of the Benelli engineers when I literally shook out the chambers shell in a Super 90 and then showed that the operator would then fire an ampty chamber. And that a buttstroke, or any hard strike to the front or rear of the weapon could induce that malfunction. Seveeral SWAT units in So Cal had a serious debate over whether the Benelli or the Remington 11-87 would be chosen.

    In the era of Tac-13 and Tac 14s, there is little reason to select a full sized 18" shotgun. They have their place but for indoors, CQB or around vehicles, a 14" barrel is far more useful. And yes...brace those bitches!

    So which is better semi auto or pump? Not any real answer. It is all personal preference.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  2. #2
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    Any opinions regarding the Benelli M2?

  3. #3
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    Spooky. We were talking about the involved deputies this morning at crew breakfast: ground fight in the puckerbrush on the res, unarmed suspect after a K9 track, deputy armed with a 92 pressed the muzzle against the crook and could not get the shot off because the Beretta had been forced out of battery. Deputy was disarmed and shot. So was his partner, neither fatally. Crook got away temporarily.
    And Agent Mireles, in the FBI shooting, racking the slide of his 870 one-handed at least twice while bleeding out.
    Both incidents happened in the late '80s. Anomalies for sure, but worth thinking about.

    Murphy was an optimist.
    Last edited by Papa; 09-21-2019 at 09:37 AM.
    Warrior for the working day.

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  4. #4
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    The only documented incident of someone using a shotgun one handed in a fight was FBI Agent Mirreles in the Miami Shootout In 1985 and he was operating it one handed but shooting it braces on the bumper of his car. So that was more one handed operation than shooting.

    Gabe is correct. Don't run shit ammo in your gun and things work just fine.
    I carry two kinds of trauma kits. One for fixing it and one for causing it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by P.D. View Post
    Any opinions regarding the Benelli M2?
    Does it come in a non NFA 14" config?

    If not, I don't see it as any advantage over a Tac 13.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Good observation.
    A semi requires a firm hold and solid surface to rest upon...ie., the shoulder, for reliable function.
    I will have to try out the two gas operated shotguns that I have to see if they will work one handed and buttstock not supported. I can see the inertial operated guns along with full length recoil system for the browning failing is not supported against the shoulder.
    I have a saiga-12 and very old winchester semi-auto.
    Currently behind a bookcase near a backdoor is a loaded Stevens pump shotgun.
    One who hammers his gun into a plow plows for those who do not....Unknown
    ...at the end of the day its not about anything else but YOU AND YOURS..... Gabe Suarez
    ....WANT not NEED is what America is all about. ..... Gabe Suarez
    Its not about how fast you can load, but about how well you can shoot ..... Someone being saved by a speed load is not something that has happened with any regularity. Gabe Suarez

  7. #7
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    I will stay with the 870 pump mainly since I have been operating one since I was 14 or 15 ( and I ain't saying how long ago that was) and the muscle memory is built in. Once when at a school they had us shooting skeet with the 870 and I think Benelli semi. I had a hard time getting the 2nd shot off with the Benelli since the dang thang would not pump! I did beat most of the hotshots with the Benelli to the second shot using the 870.
    I rather you hated me for who I am than love me for who I ain't!
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  8. #8
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    In Italy some 19 years ago, I kept up on steel targets with the head Benelli engineer. Me using a Nova pump action shotgun and he a Benelli Super 90.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    388
    Gabe's post.
    "Also the action of a semi sometimes has its peculiarities. The Benelli for example. I recall the horrified faces of the Benelli engineers when I literally shook out the chambers shell in a Super 90 and then showed that the operator would then fire an ampty chamber. And that a buttstroke, or any hard strike to the front or rear of the weapon could induce that malfunction. Seveeral SWAT units in So Cal had a serious debate over whether the Benelli or the Remington 11-87 would be chosen."

    ---------------------------

    Some years back, I had this same experience. A vigorous shake would eject a chambered round. In dim light or under stress, you might not notice.

    I retired my M1 Super 90s at that point and went back to 870s. Otherwise I liked the M1 Super 90s.

  10. #10
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    My employer has had 870s for decades. They added the 11-87 to the armory for a short period time. Both had 20" barrels with rifle sights. We qualified with each and could carry either. I always chose the 870. I couldn't load the 11-87 without it messing up on occasion due to having the button on the feed ramp that had to be pushed in with the shell. They did away the 11-87 and went with a 870 with 14" barrel with rifle sights. When you get of the car and run the pump on an 870, you get everyone's attention.
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