Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 30
  1. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    7,287
    Quote Originally Posted by Trench View Post
    I suspect that I'm the epitome of the "push with the fist" puncher.

    Thanks so much for the information and especially the advice on how to develop speed.
    A couple minutes with Brent fixed me of that problem and made me hit harder as well.
    Geek Warlord
    Dungeons & Dragons & Deadlifts

    Muscle Wizard Casts: Fist


    CRG-1 DPS
    CRG-2 CRG x 2
    SGF-1 Shotgun Gunfighting
    Trauma care under fire
    Spetsnaz Sniper
    HRO-5 Terrorist & Active Shooter Interdiction
    HRO-6 CQB: Fighting in Structures
    CRG-4 Force on Force
    HRO-5 Terrorist & Active Shooter Interdiction - 3 day
    TWOTU edition
    Trauma Medicine for the CCW Operator
    Pistol Ground Fighting (Taint Shooting Progressions)

    TWOTU since May 2015

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,508
    Focusing just on punches, given the focus of the thread...

    Again, the point about acceleration is important. Ultimately we are concerned about the speed at which we hit the target...and that does depend on how quickly we can get the hands moving from stillness to maximum speed. A punch may not get to travel very far, so it must get to max speed very quickly. But let's just call it "speed" to simplify the discussion.

    At the risk of getting too propeller-headed...

    There are different types of speed...and related to speed is time. You can categorize them but speed and time are linked.

    1. There is speed your fist moves through space - how fast is it going at point of impact? How fast can it accelerate? This is about fast twitch muscle, having smooth, efficient technique with no added or unnecessary movement, and good control of relaxation/firing the muscles.


    2. Speed and time relative between you and the opponent - directly related to the OODA loop:
    *The speed of perception (observe - through seeing, feeling, etc.)
    *The speed of interpretation and processing (orientation)
    *The speed of decision to act
    *The speed of actually, you know, ACTING

    There's a lot of stuff baked into that one. Having a strong, fast punch doesn't do much good if you can't perceive and decide when it's necessary to throw one. There is a lag between each step of O O D A...our goal is to reduce that lag through training. I don't think you can really skip those steps, but you can go through those steps very, very quickly through training and experience.

    A good analogy to describe speed and time relative to you and the opponent is a foot race. He may be a much faster runner than you are. But he he has to start at one end zone, and you get to start at the 50 yard line, you have a good chance at beating him to the other end zone.

    I demonstrate this all the time in the dojo. I stand normal, they face me in a ready fighting position. They get to decide when to step in and punch me. They don't have to go through Observe or Orient...they already know what they are going to do. They just have to Decide when to punch. I Observe their Decision...but because they have a relatively long lag between Decide and Act, I can see their decision to move and I can start my counter attack before their attack even begins. It's not so much that I move physically faster, it's just that I get to start on the 50 yard line.

    Most people have "slack" between their mind's decision to go and the body actually moving. Training can drastically take up that slack.


    3. The speed at which you can throw multiple punches.

    This one is really more about the time BETWEEN punches.

    In music, you have musical notes, the SOUND. But the RHYTHM dictated by the time between those notes. Playing faster, there's obviously less time between those notes.
    Capture.JPG

    If you want to punch fast, you need the skill not only to throw the punch but to regulate firing and relaxing your muscles between each punch.

    Most people that try to punch hard flex their muscle too much and for too long. We have all heard "tense muscles move slow, relaxed muscles move fast"...but knowing a fact is not the same as implementing it.

    Fire a punch, hit the target, and IMMEDIATELY relax the muscles of the arm. Easier said than done, it takes practice.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    476
    Brent thanks for adding your knowledge and experience to my posts and turning them into interesting discussions that benefit the Tribe.

    I train Speed in 2 ways, Red Line Punching and Reaction Speed.

    The Red Line Punching Drill I copied from Chuck Norris but shortened it to 6 min. Drill instead of a 30 min Drill.

    You punch as fast as you can for a minute. Not concerning yourself with perfect technique put simply moving your arms as fast as you can, my record is 400 Reps.

    You then add 2 one minute rounds of Combination Punches-Jab & Reverse Punch for the first round and the 3th round Double Jab, same hand and Reverse Punch. This time paying attention to technique but still Striking as fast as you can. This allows you to slow down slightly, catching your breath and getting you ready for the next round of Red Line Punching trying to match the previous round`s Rep Count. This will be harder because of the preceding 3 min. round but this is where a believe you add the Arm Speed.

    I do the Drill every 8/9 days tomaintain my speed and to try and increase my Rep count.

    I don`t practice the Drill on on Bicep/Triceps days because it messes with my Rep count for the Curls and Triceps Extentions. I also do the Drill at the start of the workout and not at the end/during the minute rest between Sets like I do with some of my other Karate Drills, if I do it slows my arms down.

    It also helps to elevate my heart rate at the start of my workout and to maintain my target heart rate throughout the workout doing Karate/Stick Drills in the min rest between sets.

    A Workout containing Red Line Punching looks like this: A 5 min Warm-Up & 5 min Cool-Down,6 min Red Line Punching and then ten 1 min rounds between sets for a total of 26 min with 4 min to spare which I do at the end of the workout splitting it between the drills I uses/as an extra Warm-Up before I start my weight training sets, giving me a 75 min Workout.

    OSSU!
    Elfie
    HALFMAN HALFCAR

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,508
    A timely coincidence, my Karate teacher came to the dojo last night to talk about developing faster punches.

    He came in with a pack of little water bottles. "Where the hell is this going?" I thought.

    Capture.JPG

    He had us each take two. We had enough students that I had to pull extra (and larger) bottles out of the fridge. Then he said to drink both the bottles half down. Ha! Especially fun for those of us that had the bigger (and freezing cold) bottles to drink down. Now I love what Sensei has to teach me but I'm really wondering what the hell is this about as my brain freezes...

    So we start the exercise...

    Position:
    *Stand in a fighting posture.
    *Hold one bottle in each hand in a guard position (hands equally at roughly chin height for the exercise).
    *Stabilize the hips - don't move them as you punch (yeah, I know...but this is about developing hand/arm speed so keep the hips in place). Swinging the hips around is detrimental here. This requires a little muscle tension but don't overdo it. Use the minimum necessary to keep them stable.
    *Keep your shoulders down and move them forward (pulling your shoulder blades apart). Stabilize the shoulders so they don't move as you punch. (Most of you will feel awkward doing this...it gets easier.) Again, just enough muscle to stabilize, not so much to impart unnecessary tension.

    By the way...I don't use my shoulders at all to fire a punch. Something to think about...

    Punching:
    *Fire two punches, Left Right, as fast as you can. Not trying to fire with power, just speed. A fast punch with zero lag between punches.

    After several reps, shake things out and take some deep breaths. Consciously relax the muscles.

    *Do it again, four punches this time. Several reps, shake it out and relax.

    *Next, five punches. Alternate the starting hand.

    You get the idea. We didn't go beyond five punches and I don't think you need to. After a certain point more punches becomes an endurance exercise and that is counterproductive to developing speed. Speed practice should be done when you are warmed up and fresh. By the time you get very tired out, you're no longer developing speed, you're conditioning for endurance. Which is also good but you must recognize the difference.

    So, why the water bottles? They provide a little resistance for the muscles while not being so much weight that you injure the joints. You don't want to do this exercise with dumbells...even light dumbells will provide momentum that you must counteract, which actually slows you down. But it's a little extra weight to give some resistance to fire through. Why drink them part way down? It makes it easier to grip the bottles without turning into a grip exercise (which would also slow you down).


    Next exercise...alternating left and right (hands moving opposite of each other) just shake the bottles up and down as fast as you can. Yes, this looks ridiculous...but it IS a good exercise in developing speed. No, it's not like the Shakeweight, but it definitely gives you Shakeweighty thoughts. Sadly it looks like you're giving double handjobs, but you can do it in the privacy of your own home.

    Capture.JPG
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    976
    There is a video of Michael Jai White teaching the late Kimbo Slice about speed and telegraphing on the set of some movie

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western WA
    Posts
    5,508
    Quote Originally Posted by twinboysdad View Post
    There is a video of Michael Jai White teaching the late Kimbo Slice about speed and telegraphing on the set of some movie
    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post

    2. Speed and time relative between you and the opponent - directly related to the OODA loop:
    *The speed of perception (observe - through seeing, feeling, etc.)
    *The speed of interpretation and processing (orientation)
    *The speed of decision to act
    *The speed of actually, you know, ACTING

    There's a lot of stuff baked into that one. Having a strong, fast punch doesn't do much good if you can't perceive and decide when it's necessary to throw one. There is a lag between each step of O O D A...our goal is to reduce that lag through training. I don't think you can really skip those steps, but you can go through those steps very, very quickly through training and experience.
    The flip side of perceiving and acting based on your opponent's attack is doing everything you can to avoid him perceiving yours. Thus, eliminating or at least minimizing your telegraph.

    Having no telegraph helps make you inherently faster because it eliminates unnecessary movement...shit that slows you down. Being able to move or fire without a wind up.

    It also makes you faster, relative to the opponent, because he doesn't perceive your attack until too late. This applies both to seeing, from outside arms length, as well as to feeling when you're hands on in a standing or ground grapple. Minimize your telegraph and you maximize the time before he can respond.

    This is one reason to eliminate shoulder movement...generally shoulder muscles don't add much to a punch other than keeping the arm attached and leveled at the target. It's easy to see shoulder movement...so I set the shoulders forward (in the position they'd be at the conclusion of a punch) before I fire a punch. This minimizes the movement, making it harder to see coming.
    Brent Yamamoto
    Suarez International Tier 1 Staff Instructor

    Ready, willing, able. Bring it.

    Instagram: karate_at_1200fps

    Upcoming classes:

    Advanced Close Range Gunfighting - Nov 2-3 Mapleton, OR

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    3,144
    Quote Originally Posted by twinboysdad View Post
    There is a video of Michael Jai White teaching the late Kimbo Slice about speed and telegraphing on the set of some movie
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdPP0TmqKiU

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    476
    Morning Brent

    We also trained with bottles but filled with beach sand and also used bicycle tubes. I enjoyed those evenings because my training challenges was suddenly negated and I was able to take full advantage of all the exercises and Drills.

    I quickly fired of a few punches in front of my laptop while pulling my shoulder blades forward like you suggest and then realized after throwing a few Strikes "normally" like I usually do, that I hardly use my shoulders when punching.

    90% of the time when fighting I use a Snapping Na Kaza Suki,from a bent elbow position and with the arm pushed forward to get as close as possible to the attacker. It felt like the most natural Strike for me to throw when I started Sparring, the backrest not impeding move movement. From there my Reverse Punch naturally turned into a hybrid Na Kaza Suki, Gyauzuki combination, with the Rear Hand only moved slightly back, almost like a Boxers Guard.

    Because I fight from a 45% angle my Rear Hand hardly gets used anyway, the angle making it virtually impossible and the Rear/Dagger Blade gets used as a shield mostly and only briefly become the forward Blade/Sword while I am turning to my left to face my attacker again.

    After watching the Michael Jai White clip it makes sense to me now why the Strike has being such an effective weapon for me-Not telegraphing the Strike from my seated position. My opponent unable to detect any movement because there simply are`nt any.

    Unfortunately I am unable to use the Strike once when fighting before the attacker fixes his posture by standing up straight and takes a step back out of range. Still I know for a fact that I will be able to land it at the start of the fight and if I have a Blade, landing a stab to the face.

    Fortunately when armed with a Blade even if the attacker steps back out of range I am still able to attack the Lead Hand consistently, using a similar movement,turning it into a Snap Cut.

    If I may be as forward to suggest something Brent,why don`t you have your students perform this Drill next time seated on chairs, isolating their arms.

    Staying relaxed while punching can also be practiced from this position. Focusing on only tightening the fist at the very last second and immediately relaxing the hand when the punch is completed. The student only focused on trying to keep their arm and hand relaxed to start with instead of having to concentrate on trying to relax their whole body.

    Interestingly Boxers and MMA Fighters hardly use more than 2 punch combinations anymore. Either to set the opponent up by moving the Guard up and down or to enable them to move into range. The punch they eventually land the 3th/even 4th Strike if a combination. More comfortable just Counter Punching/when fighting in the Gage using kicks to the opponents Front Leg as the way to get inside.

    Similar to Karate Fighters who seem to have such a fear of missing that they can only fight by sitting back, Blocking and then Counter Punching, unable to bring themselves to Strike first.

    OSSU
    Elfie
    HALFMAN HALFCAR

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by wheel View Post
    Morning Brent

    We also trained with bottles but filled with beach sand and also used bicycle tubes. I enjoyed those evenings because my training challenges was suddenly negated and I was able to take full advantage of all the exercises and Drills.

    I quickly fired of a few punches in front of my laptop while pulling my shoulder blades forward like you suggest and then realized after throwing a few Strikes "normally" like I usually do, that I hardly use my shoulders when punching.

    90% of the time when fighting I use a Snapping Na Kaza Suki,from a bent elbow position and with the arm pushed forward to get as close as possible to the attacker. It felt like the most natural Strike for me to throw when I started Sparring, the backrest not impeding move movement. From there my Reverse Punch naturally turned into a hybrid Na Kaza Suki, Gyauzuki combination, with the Rear Hand only moved slightly back, almost like a Boxers Guard.

    Because I fight from a 45% angle my Rear Hand hardly gets used anyway, the angle making it virtually impossible and the Rear/Dagger Blade gets used as a shield mostly and only briefly become the forward Blade/Sword while I am turning to my left to face my attacker again.

    After watching the Michael Jai White clip it makes sense to me now why the Strike has being such an effective weapon for me-Not telegraphing the Strike from my seated position. My opponent unable to detect any movement because there simply are`nt any.

    Unfortunately I am unable to use the Strike once when fighting before the attacker fixes his posture by standing up straight and takes a step back out of range. Still I know for a fact that I will be able to land it at the start of the fight and if I have a Blade, landing a stab to the face.

    Fortunately when armed with a Blade even if the attacker steps back out of range I am still able to attack the Lead Hand consistently, using a similar movement,turning it into a Snap Cut.

    If I may be as forward to suggest something Brent,why don`t you have your students perform this Drill next time seated on chairs, isolating their arms.

    Staying relaxed while punching can also be practiced from this position. Focusing on only tightening the fist at the very last second and immediately relaxing the hand when the punch is completed. The student only focused on trying to keep their arm and hand relaxed to start with instead of having to concentrate on trying to relax their whole body.

    Interestingly Boxers and MMA Fighters hardly use more than 2 punch combinations anymore. Either to set the opponent up by moving the Guard up and down or to enable them to move into range. The punch they eventually land the 3th/even 4th Strike if a combination. More comfortable just Counter Punching/when fighting in the Gage using kicks to the opponents Front Leg as the way to get inside.

    Similar to Karate Fighters who seem to have such a fear of missing that they can only fight by sitting back, Blocking and then Counter Punching, unable to bring themselves to Strike first.

    OSSU
    Elfie
    One thing that I have started to incorporate into my training is striking from restricted spaces. Admittedly, we stole this from Geoff Thompson. Stand up against the wall, or lay on the floor and have your training partner hold pads almost uncomfortably close, then hit the pads. You will not be able to move your arms back. Most people will drop weight or fire their hips and legs to generate power. The drill we do does not allow you to do that and forces you to get your striking power from other areas of your body.

    Give that a shot and see if it works for you as well.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    476
    Morning Vlad

    Thanks for posting this idea. I have done some similar training with a friend in the Dojo who has come up with some pretty cool Strikes for me to use either of my back/in close range. My favorite Strike of my back is a Spear-hand aimed at the Armpit, while pulling the attacker sharply forward with my other hand.

    In close I like the leopard-Fist Strike aimed at the sternum. What I like about this Strike is that I can fire it from the Center-Line simply using the arm-A bit more range incorporate the Same-Side Hip with a short, snapping forward motion-And even more range add the Lats to the Strike. Incorporating my Double stick & Tekki Training into the Strike.

    Another key component of Karate Training is the corkscrew action of the hand. If you take the Back-Fist for example simply bending the arm at the elbow, no matter how far I am able to pull the arm back, it does not add any force to the blow. And I am left with only using the Strike in a piston like fashion, landing multiple Strikes in Rapid secession. On the other hand if I use a Ridge-Hand from a Na-Kaza-Suki arm position even from fairly close in I can add the front hip again and the shoulder.

    The snap enables me to potentially use any Rear Hand Power Strike by bringing that arm forward, bending it and adding a Corkscrew.

    So when choosing a Strike I look to see if any of these five elements are present:

    a. Can I add the hip.
    b. Can I add the back and shoulder.
    c. Can I snap the wrist.
    d. Can I turn a Power Strike into a Lead Hand Power Strike by bringing the Rear Hand Forward.
    e. Create leverage by Pulling & Striking at the same time.

    Thanks Again
    Cheers
    Ellfie
    HALFMAN HALFCAR

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •