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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by choirboy View Post
    I would have hung the jury. Asshole or not, once he was on the ground the "victim" became the aggressor. A tactical pause is not an unambiguous retreat.

    Choirboy
    Unfortunately for the skinny white dude you cannot legally SHOOT people for pushing you down. You can only use a commensurate amount of force. And pushing you down is not viewed as LETHAL force and arguing disparity of force here is gonna be a tough sell. The attack ceased and as soon as the gun came out the attacker put his hands up and increased the distance between them. THEN he was shot.

    If Drejka had gotten the gun out faster and fired IMMEDIATELY while dude was still standing over him then MAYBE there would be a longer discussion about whether it was justified. But with the video showing the guy did not fire for 2 to 3 seconds after the gun came out.... by the law this verdict is correct.
    Last edited by Randy Harris; 08-27-2019 at 07:21 AM.
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  2. #22
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    The other thing I will say here, and undoubtedly unpopular with the snakeflaggers, is this. People are getting increasingly stupid, medicated, and largely have grown into pseudo adulthood without ever having their asses kicked in school for rudeness (thanks to the zero tolerance of schoolyard fighting). Add to this the ability for Billy Boogereater to buy a piece of crap cheap pistol, and the room temp IQ necessary to pass a CCW test, and what do you end up with?

    Shit like this.
    Gabriel Suarez

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  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Harris View Post
    If Drejka had gotten the gun out faster and fired IMMEDIATELY while dude was still standing over him then MAYBE there would be a longer discussion about whether it was justified. But with the video showing the guy did not fire for 2 to 3 seconds after the gun came out.... by the law this verdict is correct.
    You nailed it. We are getting too distracted by the "his a dick" and ignoring the key being that imminence was lost the moment the attacker backed away.

    Don't violate the three stupids. Don't be a dick. That's already known. What to learn from this is the split second changes in when self defense is legal vs not.

  4. #24
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    Nov 2017
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    101
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    That window is situational. As we discussed. The beauty of the flow chart is simplicity. There is beauty in a very simple kata that has a great many complex implications, rather than a complex kata that illustrates every possible option. To have a flowchart that discuses every possible situation would require a blue print sized diagram and would be impossible to remember on the fly.
    Gabe, you misunderstand my point. The simplicity of the flowchart is what makes it beautiful and useful! I am NOT advocating for more boxes/branches/decisions.

    My point is that the flowchart is not only useful in a "static" environment, but is applicable and (even more) useful in a dynamic changing environment. You may have a situation where you go through the flowchart, and arrive at a conclusion.

    However, that conclusion has a "shelf life", and if events unfold and change, you should revert back to the flowchart again.

    Two examples where the flowchart works perfectly, as is, in a dynamic situation - where you can use the chart more than once:

    1) You are/were justified in using deadly force, BUT Events change, there is no longer an imminent lethal threat (the Justification Window has closed). Refer back to the flowchart at the beginning - "Possibility of Serious Injury or Deadly Force" is no longer present. You are NOT justified to use deadly force (even if you had been a few minutes/seconds before).

    2) "Do you have a clear, articulable perception of the events" - You may not (yet) have a clear perception of events, and thus are NOT justified in shooting. The flowchart has worked perfectly. You are uncertain of events - don't shoot. But you don't necessarily have to walk away. You can "work for the shot" by taking up a position of advantage as you take the time necessary to gain a clearer perception of the events. Then go right back to the flowchart with your new, clear perception and re-assess.

    My point - you should be mentally prepared to go back to the flowchart and re-analyze if the situation has changed.

  5. #25
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    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntindoc View Post
    In Texas (and probably most states) you may not initiate a conflict then claim self defense. If you are not a LEO it is not your business to enforce ordinances that would ultimately be a misdemeanor.


    It would be different if you accidentally hit dead guy's car while backing up in a parking lot and he went physical on you.

    Life is hard. It is harder if you are stupid.
    Yes. As you, Randy, Gabe et al stated, it is not just that he was a stupid dick and it’s not just that he shot the guy after said guy backed off. It’s a combination of both. He claimed he didn’t seethe guys hands or that he backed off etc. That is where the whole idea of being incorrect but still justified comes in but this idiot had two things going against him, the clear video evidence AND the fact that he started a stupid fight for a stupid reason then shot the dude when it escalated. Not only would I have not hung the jury here, I would have recommended the max for this dipshit.
    “Every day the same thing...variety”

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LV_MD View Post
    Gabe, you misunderstand my point. The simplicity of the flowchart is what makes it beautiful and useful! I am NOT advocating for more boxes/branches/decisions.

    My point is that the flowchart is not only useful in a "static" environment, but is applicable and (even more) useful in a dynamic changing environment. You may have a situation where you go through the flowchart, and arrive at a conclusion.

    However, that conclusion has a "shelf life", and if events unfold and change, you should revert back to the flowchart again.

    Two examples where the flowchart works perfectly, as is, in a dynamic situation - where you can use the chart more than once:

    1) You are/were justified in using deadly force, BUT Events change, there is no longer an imminent lethal threat (the Justification Window has closed). Refer back to the flowchart at the beginning - "Possibility of Serious Injury or Deadly Force" is no longer present. You are NOT justified to use deadly force (even if you had been a few minutes/seconds before).

    2) "Do you have a clear, articulable perception of the events" - You may not (yet) have a clear perception of events, and thus are NOT justified in shooting. The flowchart has worked perfectly. You are uncertain of events - don't shoot. But you don't necessarily have to walk away. You can "work for the shot" by taking up a position of advantage as you take the time necessary to gain a clearer perception of the events. Then go right back to the flowchart with your new, clear perception and re-assess.

    My point - you should be mentally prepared to go back to the flowchart and re-analyze if the situation has changed.
    Agreed sir.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFSOCCRNA View Post
    Yes. As you, Randy, Gabe et al stated, it is not just that he was a stupid dick and it’s not just that he shot the guy after said guy backed off. It’s a combination of both. He claimed he didn’t seethe guys hands or that he backed off etc. That is where the whole idea of being incorrect but still justified comes in but this idiot had two things going against him, the clear video evidence AND the fact that he started a stupid fight for a stupid reason then shot the dude when it escalated. Not only would I have not hung the jury here, I would have recommended the max for this dipshit.
    1

    1). He is an asshat, and I for one think it is well past the zero hour for the gun community to stop trying to defend asshats just because they had a gun.
    2). He has a history of picking fights over stupid stuff...and he did so in this case.
    3). He started this beginning to end. His standing is questionable, and at best a gray area. Intelligent people do not operate in gray areas.
    4). The mistaken but still justified is a MAY not a SHALL. Your mistake must be reasonable and credible and not be tainted by fuckery such as this. *


    *Mistaken but still justified examples -

    a). Shooting the UC operative because he looked and acted like a criminal causing the reasonable man to assume the UC was a criminal - regrettable but justified.
    b). Shooting the guy waving the black tipped airsoft in a practical joke of an active shooting...or robbery...or whatever - regrettable but justified.

    If you want to mentally sail through all of this stuff, attend the classes Killing Within The Law and Winning The Aftermath. Ask the guys that were there what they think.
    Gabriel Suarez

    Turning Lambs into Lions Since 1995

    Suarez International USA Headquarters

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Suarez View Post
    1

    1). He is an asshat, and I for one think it is well past the zero hour for the gun community to stop trying to defend asshats just because they had a gun.
    2). He has a history of picking fights over stupid stuff...and he did so in this case.
    3). He started this beginning to end. His standing is questionable, and at best a gray area. Intelligent people do not operate in gray areas.
    4). The mistaken but still justified is a MAY not a SHALL. Your mistake must be reasonable and credible and not be tainted by fuckery such as this. *


    *Mistaken but still justified examples -

    a). Shooting the UC operative because he looked and acted like a criminal causing the reasonable man to assume the UC was a criminal - regrettable but justified.
    b). Shooting the guy waving the black tipped airsoft in a practical joke of an active shooting...or robbery...or whatever - regrettable but justified.

    If you want to mentally sail through all of this stuff, attend the classes Killing Within The Law and Winning The Aftermath. Ask the guys that were there what they think.
    Yes, I get it and I don’t think he had a valid “mistaken but justified” situation but he tried saying that in so many words. My whole point in all of this has been that it is more than just whether the shoot was justified at that moment but we must also take into account how we get our selves to that point. “Am I about to do something stupid...?” Others were saying that part didn’t matter, I believe it does so I said so. As far as the class, I would love to attend and will do so when my work schedule allows but that has been an issue for a while. Is what it is.
    “Every day the same thing...variety”

  9. #29
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    As an aside, the expert witness for the prosecution was Dr. Roy Bedard, a former police officer. I looked him up, and his website features a series of articles he wrote for PoliceOne that advocate aiming for the legs when being charged by a bad guy with a contact weapon. That way, he says, the officer is less likely to kill the bad guy. And this man trains police departments...
    Last edited by Eric Tull; 08-27-2019 at 08:46 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Tull View Post
    As an aside, the expert witness for the prosecution was Dr. Roy Bedard, a former police officer. I looked him up, and his website features a series of articles he wrote for PoliceOne that advocate aiming for the legs when being charged by a bad guy with a contact weapon. That way, he says, the officer is less likely to kill the bad guy. And this man trains police departments...
    He'd best stay away from here. Seattle, on the other hand....
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